Jeff Heidman Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 IN a PBEM game I was palying, I had three half tracks get wiped in one turn strictly from small arms fire. Do not ask me how my tactical brilliance failed me such that I decided to drive three halftracks full of PanzerGrandiers into a bunch of small arms fire, 'cause that ain't important right now!!! Anyway, in the space of a few seconds, all three were destroyed, and their crews and passengers thrashed. Halftracks are certanly not meant to be used to carry troops around in the middle of a firefight, granted, but as far as I could tell, their armor was almost completely useless against small arms fire. That cannot be correct. None of the guys shooting at them had a height advantage, nore did any of them have heavy (non-squad) machine guns. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 I think this is just the old bell curve of possible results. From the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm currently raking a single Sdkz 251/1 w/ 4 different M2s, and the damn thing won't die. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 I just needed two hits from a 57mm RCL to kill a HT. Grrrr... Joe - that won't help you. I have called Michael Caine to the rescue! ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 A possibility: How close to the enemy did the halftracks get? If 30 meters or less, the possibility of a grenade lob moves up. I lost an open-top M18 to a long-range grenade lob once. Or if close enough, some form of "close assault" by the enemy infantry might've been in effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 18, 2000 Author Share Posted July 18, 2000 Spook, that is a good point. I do not recall if they were that close, but they might have been. Of course, I would like to see the guy who can throw a grenade 30m! The biggest shock was that it was just BAM BAM BAM, three dead tracks. The three passenger squads bailed, and of course, got cut to pieces in the road before they could rout away. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Maybe........It's because your opponent's own tactical brilliance is so overwhelming that any attempt at resistance would be crushed like the sissy boys that they are! Hey Jeff, don't forget the 3 armoured cars...and the lynx...oh yeah, those other two tracks in the center of town...what else?...did i forget anything? BTW, are we on turn 2 or 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 18, 2000 Author Share Posted July 18, 2000 Hey Kingfish, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back! Three armored cars. Sheesh. I can't help it if the scenario designer parked them in the middle of a road with enemy tanks staring at them a few dozen meters away! Not to worry, they will all die in the end. You stil have to get across those bridges some how... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 BTW, I think (not 100% sure) that my A/C and that jeep were the ones that popped your tracks. I don't think it was the troops because they were just entering the bldg, with your tracks on the other side. Plus the way they went, 1-2-3, makes me think that one of my guys let loose with a .50 MG. I don't see one squad hurling three grenades one right after the other and scoring with each. Plus, like i said, they were just entering the bldg so they didn't have LOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 probably not relevant given that you're discussing a specific scenario, but you can always lose them to minefields as well. and at really close range, the inherent LMGs of the enemy squads might be able to get some penetrations, maybe. I dk if that's in the game. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldgamer Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 snip Of course, I would like to see the guy who can throw a grenade 30m! +++ 30 meters?? No problem, been there and done that. Mind you not with a pineapple, but with the little round buggers 30 meters is not that big a deal. Can't say I could put one into a 251, but it would be fair bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: IN a PBEM game I was palying, I had three half tracks get wiped in one turn strictly from small arms fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess you need better drivers, Jeff; in my present game, I have a halftrack driven by Jaques Villeneuve that I put on "fast" and zipped down the road and up a sideroad and back in order to recon the enemy positions. The halftrack came out unscathed despite being shot at by a variety of Germans, including one called Michael Schumacher... Henri [This message has been edited by Henri (edited 07-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri: despite being shot at by a variety of Germans, including one called Michael Schumacher... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tosh! Michael Schumacher, as everyone knows, received the Ritterkreuz for his successful attempts to stem the English troops advance by ramming their lead HTs. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanE Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish: BTW, I think (not 100% sure) that my A/C and that jeep were the ones that popped your tracks. I don't think it was the troops because they were just entering the bldg, with your tracks on the other side. Plus the way they went, 1-2-3, makes me think that one of my guys let loose with a .50 MG. I don't see one squad hurling three grenades one right after the other and scoring with each. Plus, like i said, they were just entering the bldg so they didn't have LOS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ahhhhh...the joys of FOW. I think this is a good example of how the game works and how we all must adjust our thinking. Just because a unit gets blown up/killed, does not mean you get to see what did the killing. ------------------ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Interesting. I found this spec (from TM 43-0001-27 "Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammuntion"): "Cartridge, Caliber .30, Armor Piercing, M2 Use: M37, M1919A4 and M1919A6 Machine Guns Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 (Garand) "Description: Armor Piercing. Cartridge is identified by a black bullet tip. "Function: Penetration, fired at 7/8 inch thick homogenous armor plate at 100 yards, will not be less than .42 inch." I think most of the German HTs are shown as having 8-15mm armor. The thick front, then, is about .6" thick. Not sure what this proves, and of course most of the flying ordnance was ball, not AP, but still it's close enough to make any HT crew cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havermeyer Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 JUARDIS!!! (QB PBEM Opponent) What do you think? (5 halftrack kills in 2 turns) Ain't gonna be no lebensraum in this town. ------------------ "Two World Wars and One World Cup, do da, do da!" --British Hooligan, sung to Camptown Races Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Not sure what this proves, and of course most of the flying ordnance was ball, not AP, but still it's close enough to make any HT crew cautious. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wasn't there something that on an ammo chain you would have every X round tracer, and every X round AP, if available? Does the job for killing soft targets, and just in case... ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havermeyer Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Just a follow-up. A (snip) tank did wipe one halftrack out of existence, all others died of small arms, 30 cal, grenades, or 60mm mortar (take yer pick). It was a beautiful sight, with a squad, under withering fire, dropping satchel charges and grenades on a half-track in front of their building... and then at 59.98 seconds, they toss another grenade-- falling-- in super-slo-mo it drops in front of the other track, and rolls... rolls... rolls... underneath the track... 61+ seconds... boom. Three down, two to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cward Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Lets not forget the rifle grenades.. the manual says that they are used to kill open topped vehicles.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 When Gen. Bradley was interviewing troops that had just come out of the battle at Kassering Pass, he asked them about the halftracks and whether or not the German bullets could penetrate the armor. One young lad said " No sir. The bullets just come in one side, rattle around a bit and go out the other side". Wayne. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Mixing AP and tracer in with ball was indeed SOP for M1919 belts. GIs with Garands also had access to AP that could be kept for just such occasions. Rifle grenades should have been visible in the playback... We don't know the what the range was from the infantry to the HTs- Jeff? and the facing? Oooh, if from the side, that HT should have had its insurance premiums doubled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rother Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 I just had a half strength British HQ unit take out 2 German HTs at 316m with a Lee-Enfield rifle. That's some shooting! I'd rather be lucky than good anyday. Rother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rother: I'd rather be lucky than good anyday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hear hear! ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielh Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Jeff, In the Villers Bocage Operation my Tigers took out a whole bunch of Halftracks only with their machineguns ! I wondered a bit, but the dismounting crews were great in spoiling my tanks task to hunt enemy armor, all around 400 - 500 m in front of my tanks. Now i know why halftracks are so cheap to get, they seem to give the Inf-squad some little additional protection. In photographs of german armor operations (russia) one can clearly see the halftracks sprayed in between the advancing tanks, maybe they were nuts, delivering some scrap metal to the enemy... Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havermeyer Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 In scenario (snip) 4 tigers BEAM into the middle of two depleted squads and HQ/2. The 1/2 HQ unit was subsequently credited with the KILL. Sadly, I didn't notice till the end of the next turn that the (now dead) HQ had killed the Tiger. At the time I was panicking thinking I had 4 Tigers in my rear (the imagery fits the tactical situation, though the pucker would require them to be VERY THIN tigers). ------------------ "Two World Wars and One World Cup, do da, do da!" --British Hooligan, sung to Camptown Races Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Tosh! Michael Schumacher, as everyone knows, received the Ritterkreuz for his successful attempts to stem the English troops advance by ramming their lead HTs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL! But I've heard that he met a similar fate recently. Dschugaschwili ------------------ Erst hat man kein Glück, und dann kommt auch noch Pech dazu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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