Should the withdraw command be... withdrawn?

[Darwin]

Remove the withdraw command you say??? Are you mad?

Extreemely useful tool. I also would like to see it enhanced somehow so crews could bail their weapons in dire situtions. No way it should be removed.

[Sgt CDAT]

It is just like all commands, it has its time and place to be used. If used at the wrong time and place then it is not worth it, but if it is used in the right time and place then it is worth being there! I have used it and glad that it was there!

[coralsaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darwin:

Remove the withdraw command you say??? Are you mad?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe.

Well Darwin, I did not say it should be withdrawn... I just commented on the realism of instantaneous response to a command. It doesn't cut it.

The fact that it is a useful command, as you say, is not the point. I am sure a command that makes FO drop smoke with zero delay would be extremely useful, but totally unrealistic and thus out of the scope of CM.

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My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli...

[Darwin]

Good points however,

Troops under duress will not respond positively to the withdraw command nor can complex order schemes be laid out with the withdraw command included.

I see the withdraw command as realistic as a well ordered unit should be able to respond immediately to a rout (get the f**k out) command. (note earlier comments on green units commonly breaking when given this command)

The instantaneous smoke is a bit much even for me

[Peterk]

Just used it last night with a bazooka crew. He took 3 shots to take out a Panther and by that time he had about 4 other tanks wailing away at him. I used the Withdraw to pull him back out of sight without losing a man and set him up a few turns later to take out another enemy. Without the withdraw command he would have been toast.

p.

[Chupacabra]

I don't have a problem with the instantaneous nature of the withdraw command.

Most movement orders are relatively complex, and would take a bit to process. For example: "Head down to that treeline on the left, sprint across the clearing, and hit the dirt. Crawl forward 50m and establish a base of fire with your BAR." To me, it's both correct and realistic to assign a delay to this. The platoon leader would have to contact the squad leaders, who would then have to convey that information accurately to his men.

On the other hand, it doesn't take any time at all to understand "EVERYONE RUN AWAY!"

The smoke analogy is a bit misplaced - considering that you can only move backwards, and considering the risk involved, it's not like you're getting something useful for free.

Dunno, I don't use the order a whole lot, but I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would be able to find a way to abuse it.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[bigmac@work]

Wow! I'm in the same boat as Johnno, but I'm afraid I can't agree with him about taking it out (sorry, buddy... ). This is the price I pay for using hotkeys all the time... I can think of numerous occasions in past games (no comments) where I would have loved to have this command, and actually use it... In a sick kinda way, I can't wait to be in a situation where I can use it just to see how it works! Yes, I'm a masochist... Hey Johnno, it may even be in your Operation we're trying out (St. Athan's, for the uninitiated. Get it here: http://persweb.direct.ca/johnnocm). My left flank is gettin' too hot to handle!

[jshandorf]

Huh???? How are you guys using withdraw? If the squad you are trying to withdraw is already all shot up, out of ammo, moral low, in a VERY bad position with no egress for retreat then OFCOARSE withdrawl isn't going to work very well. Hell, in fact nothing is gonna work for you.

Withdrawl should be used when you realize that if you don't get the unit out now, while they are still okay they are going to die. AND never use withdrawl unless you have an avenue of retreat.

For example.. You have some men in fox holes fighting with some infantry and they are doing a good job of handing it to them. The next thing you know 3 tanks pull up over the hill and proceed to lambast your men in the fox holes. At THIS point you should be deciding to withdraw. If you don't by the next turn it is too late. Those troops willl withdraw all by themselves.. after routing. Understand?

I have on several occasions used withdraw and never lost the moral of the troops. It depends on the situation and when when you use it.

So for my vote I say keep it. I has been very effictive and useful for me.

Jeff

[Buckeye]

I agree with Jeff. I've used the withdraw command to pull back infantry forces quickly who came under tank fire, often by having them pull back further on a reverse slope (i.e., to a revised military crest). I also use it to pull depleted FOs out and off the board, and for other times when I need immediate action. It doesn't usually result in a decline in morale, especially if C & C is maintained.

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"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[RudeLover]

If you've got a lone bazookaman facing all of KG Peiper with 1000 m of open ground behind him, the W command is equivalent to the Hari-Kari command. (I tried this in the Stoumount Op.) Have a route of withdrawal, keep leaders nearby, use covering / suppressing fire, and don't wait until your guys are being overrun by the entirety of the enemy main body. I've saved key troops this way, esp. after ambushes. (I've also lost the lot of 'em many times by trying to shoot one more turn in the hopes of causing more casualties...)

[dNorwood]

It's probably not worth worrying about, but I HAVE found a glitch in "Withdraw" - you can only withdraw from the enemy LINES, not the enemy. Although that's usually the same thing, a PBEM at the moment has our lines rotated 90 degrees. So I can't withdraw "from" the enemy, only "along" him

[Juardis]

I've had quite a few occasions lately to make liberal use of withdrawals. Here's what I've learned (this is one of the many lessons you've taught me so far Ron A. ).

If you withdraw one or two troops, then they'll be OK mentally. If you start withdrawing more, then the whole platoon (WHETHER THEY WITHDRAW OR NOT) is rattled. So when Ron starts advancing his squads into my squads, if I issue a withdraw order to 2 or more units (squads, HQ, sniper, whatever), then they will bug out immediately unless they're broken, routed, or panicked. IN ADDITION, if I were to leave a flamethrower behind as a little surprise for his advancing infantry, my flamer will also go to a reduced state (e.g., from green to yellow). If more withdrawals are ordered, then it can feed on itself to the point that my flamer also breaks and runs on his own accord.

So use it sparingly as those assets nearby seem to be affected, not just the ones withdrawing. Also, global morale plays a role in how fast a withdrawing unit breaks and becomes routed.

This is an observation on my part and in no way based on knowledge of the actual AI coding. So it could just as easily be that withdrawing lowers global morale which reduces the morale of non-withdrawing units to the point that they can break and run as well. Or it could be that I'm getting my butt kicked anyway and it was the enemy causing my troops to act like groundhogs.

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Jeff Abbott

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

I have used the withdraw command when i see a Hummel or SP gun cresting a hill...and i know that in the next move my opponent will start pounding the crap out of the house where my squad is right in his LoS. So withdraw into cover of another building or a patch of trees hopefully out of his Los. This gives your men time to hide until you can get your armour to engage the Hummel.....I fear those those Evil Hummels!!

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[Johnno]

I withdraw my previous comment.

I wasn't lying though, I forgot the command was there. After seeing this 'thread' here though I would try a few AI QB's and give the 'withdraw' command a workout. Thinking of what a good battle would be I said hey "Let's play Paratroops on Parade." Now as a word of advice try this scenario out it is great! In the battle I tried the 'withdraw' command several times and was really surprised how good it is in getting those sorry ass germans troops out of the line of fire and back into the woods for a saurerkraut with wienerschnitzel and brewski break.

All kidding aside though, I believe that this thread may have helped my game some due to the lack of me giving this 'withdraw' command a good try.

Thanks coralsaw for starting this thread, as for the realism factor...well those questions are just getting old. You can't always think of the game and it's action as linear (is that the right context?) i.e. you see 3 men on the map but it is representing 12. It's a reasonable question though. I just figure the sarge says "RUN!" and they run. If he was saying "okay you go there, you go there, you go there and you go there." So Private Gumpynuts says "wait where was I supposed to go?" So Sarge has to slap him upside the head and tell him to pay attention and start all over. So you can see why time has a factor in a move but a withdraw command is pretty well 'straight-forward.'

Johnno

Vist my website:

Dogs of War, CMBO online players club http://persweb.direct.ca/johnnocm/

"I like a man who grins when he fights."

- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

[Darwin]

Sometimes I am loathe to explain what tricks I have. For the most part we each have only so many bows in our quiver, wouldn't want one of you upstarts to get one over on me

Then again, the more difficult the opponent the better. I use this command extensively sometimes I pay for it, but it generally saves my ass or sets up ambushes.

Quick AAR as an example:

Enemy has pillboxes on a forested ridgeline 2 of them 75's and one 88 with several supporting wooden mg bunkers.

I scout forwrd using the withdrawl command every time my units find themselves under fire (I looked for small holes in the los to keep my scouts forwad but out of direct fire).

Call in smoke while massing forces, rush the pillboxes and nearby crest. I run into 2 ambushes, my opponent expected both prongs. I immediatly withdraw the secondary attack (completely, everyone runs back to postions below the crest) while adding support to the direct attack on pillboxes.

as soon as the pillboxes go down (back door penetration lol) I completely withdraw that entire group back through the smoke to positions below the crest. while bringing my armor into the AT void just created.

Smoke rises I have exposed a huge portion of his defenses for minimal losses and now have 2 shermans blowing the tar out of the opponent. He tries to pursue one attack group and gets cut down as my withdrawing troops moved into good postions in trees under a crest (support mg's previously hidden helped them considerably)

The rest of the battle was mostly mop up, leapfrogging platoons forward under direct tank support.

end AAR.

I try to use withdraw commands in cat and mouse forest battles and sometimes in cityfights attempting to draw my enemies into ambushes or simply into better odds for my guys. I generally don't want to fight on their terms and if I can force my opponent to give up his preplanned defenses I have a better chance (generally). Oftentimes I am able to achieve momentary local firepower superiority when I shouldn't have leaving units on guard and while withdrawing forward elements to just behind guarding units.

Sorry to keep going on, but I am having difficulty conveying the essense of my thoughts here One last point, using the manner described above, you can often create mini defensive situations during your attack with associated bonuses.

Good luck and good gaming.

[coralsaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darwin:

I immediatly withdraw the secondary attack (completely, everyone runs back to postions below the crest) while adding support to the direct attack on pillboxes.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting!

What quality are your troops Darwin? Do you not get any morale hit using withdraw, as somebody mentioned happens when withdrawing more than a couple units?

I am not sure I understand why a defender would leave his prepared positions and rush into an attacker's ambush.

Would be great to see this AAR in full colours. Ah, if only we could have the ability to film CM games...

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My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli...

[This message has been edited by coralsaw (edited 11-16-2000).]

[Darwin]

Originally posted by coralsaw:

Interesting!

What quality are your troops Darwin? Do you not get any morale hit using withdraw, as somebody mentioned happens when withdrawing more than a couple units?

These were regulars. Mind you there was a lot of smoke so as soon as they had moved but a few meters they weren't taking any more fire (This is an issue I wish was addressed BTW). the platoon hq and one full squad was fine upon completing the withdraw, one squad was ok by the next turn and the third was out of commish for several turns.

I am not sure I understand why a defender would leave his prepared positions and rush into an attacker's ambush.

I believe he thought I was horribly attritted and hadn't seen my support moving up in the fog. He thought he had routed my platoon when in fact they had been withdrawn and still had the ability to fight.

Side point, I thrash this person regularly so perhaps his taste for the possible kill was clouding his decision making

Nevertheless, most opponents (myself included) are vulnerable to this sort of manouver occcasionally. Especially just after losing a critical point in the battle elsewhere a common mistake is to take a huge gamble elsewhere in the hopes of getting back the edge.

Would be great to see this AAR in full colours. Ah, if only we could have the ability to film CM games...

The files are already gone for this one unfotunately. I seem to have been doing well on the pbem circuit though and am tinkering with trying to put my thoughts down into somekind of light tactical guides. As everything is integrated and situationally dependent I have having trouble organizing how I would put it all together.

[Darwin]

I really have to start using spellchecker or just not post when I am inebriated. That is awful