coralsaw Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Have you ever, ever used the withdraw command? I haven't. Somehow this "run faster but may lose morale" does not appeal... ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... [This message has been edited by coralsaw (edited 11-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Would you rather save your men and lose some morale, or lose the men and morale. Withdraw has no delay, and that has saved many a squad or platoon from being overrun. ------------------ ...This is Romeo-Foxtrot, shall we dance?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted November 12, 2000 Author Share Posted November 12, 2000 Kingfish, Is it true that the withdraw order has no delay? Your rhetorical question is better left unanswered. ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Coralsaw, It's true. No delay! Don't overestimate this order, though. Use it only when absolutely necessary, i.e. use it to save lives, not for fancy tactical manouvers. --edit-- BTW, don't forget; you can only withdraw and you can't give any other order while withdrawing. ------------------ Der ver zwei peanuts, valking down der Strasse, and von vas...assaulted! peanut. Ho-ho-ho-ho. [This message has been edited by Juju (edited 11-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlop Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 The Withdraw command has saved my butt on numerous occasions. I don't mind a small morale penalty so long as my men can continue to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted November 12, 2000 Author Share Posted November 12, 2000 Live and learn... Thanks guys. Based on your experience, do you end up with broken or panicking troops most of the time? I have used short run or crawl/run in forests to withdraw up to now. Seems to work half of the time OK. Oh, and I try not to withdraw at the last minute... ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I usually only use it when I want to remove elements from the frontline that are no longer combat worthy, badly mauled, or out of ammo. In other words, if all they contribute to the battle is "taking fire until they die" I rather pull them out quickly. As for panicking. Depends on your luck and the unit's experience, Whether its currently under fire and probably whether or not the unit is currently under command of its HQ. ------------------ Der ver zwei peanuts, valking down der Strasse, and von vas...assaulted! peanut. Ho-ho-ho-ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I associate Withdraw with a "destroy this unit" command, and quit using it altogether. I would rather have the guys die in place, while taking one or two more of the enemy with them, than get destroyed anyway being shot in the back. The remnants of a squad that Withdraws under fire (and why else use it?) are generally useless for the rest of the game, in my experience. Either I don't understand its use, or that's how it's supposed to work, or it isn't right, in descending order of likelihood. As soon as those guys turn to scoot they start dropping like flies. So I personally decided that if I want to decimate my own forces, I'll buy some jabos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Who thinks support weapon crews, if ordered to withdraw, should abandon their weapons? There doesn't seem to be much point in ordering a heavy MG to withdraw, as he'll just saunter to the rear as the enemy lines him up for the kill. These guys should drop everything and run, don't you think? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I agree, David. I'd even go a bit further: Maybe the 'panic' or 'broken' state should also have support weapon crews drop anything heavier than a personal weapon (AT teams excluded maybe). ------------------ Der ver zwei peanuts, valking down der Strasse, and von vas...assaulted! peanut. Ho-ho-ho-ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 The withdraw command is very powerful if used in the correct circumstances. For example, I usually use it just as my reinforcement troops for a particular location are getting into place, or if I can manage to suppress the attacks for a minute or so, and allow the troops to withdraw under the absolute minimum of fire. Trying to withdraw troops under heavy fire will just kill them, but if done properly allows them to live to fight another day. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BV Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I have used the withdraw command on several occasions and have never had the troops involved break or panic at the end of the withdrawal. They leave the area immediately with no delay and if they are in woods, houses, or other suitable cover, they frequently break complete contact with the enemy before loosing any men at all. Machine guns are a different matter, and do just seem to "walk slowly away" which often does lead to them taking additional casualties. With squads, however, I have had them withdraw and later in the scenario, successfully perform attacks in another place, or other normal duties. Try experiementing around with the command-I think it definately has it's uses in certain situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I use it all the time and wouldn't want it removed or have support teams drop their weapons(!). I agree with Mark IV in that once the enemy gets in close enough it is pointless to 'withdraw' as your troops will just get cut down with nothing in return, better off just leaving them in place. Before the situation has fully developed or turned totally bad is when to use it, some examples off the top of my head, vacating a damaged building, observation of a spotting round landing near your troops, pulling back from an ambush or pulling back from a superior flanking maneuver. Green troops, who need it most because of their long delay, seem a lot more fragile when withdrawing and will generally fall apart if taking any fire. Regular and Veteran troops react better, usually don't need it for the higher quality troops because their delay is slight anyway. The movement path will be a regular waypoint the next turn to be adjusted as needed. I like the flexibility of no delay in the the Withdraw order, the negatives of lower morale seem negligible when I use it. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 what i'd like to see: withdraw command: we're in a bad spot, take up a new position retreat command: we've lost, drop the heavy stuff and run like hell! ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntg84 Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I agree with russel, maybe a retreat that is instant, or a pull back and find a new position command that wouldn't be as long as a move, but not instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I think armor should also have this command. The game potrays tanks as steadfast robots that react only when the Tac"AI" decides they are in danger. In reality, no tank would stand still if hit (maybe certain tanks during their "reign" like T34s vs early german tanks or Tiger Is vs 1943 tanks, etc). I also believe most tanks would not take kindly to near misses (which are easy to detect from the supersonic crack around them and tracers flying by). Hopefully, BTS will finish with the TCP stuff and make a refinement to the armor. I think the infantry game is pretty good as is but get annoyed by armor behaviour and targeting. Is there going to be a fix to the ambush command? Its useless now because the tank will just eyeball the ambush target even when getting it is getting hit! This is a perfect example of what I am raving about. If the tank is ambushing a target area and finds itself getting plinked on and cant determine where the fire is coming from, then wouldnt it blow smoke and retreat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 One hopes that planning has included the possibility of withdrawal under the protection of supporting fires. Where an advanced unit has expended all of its attacking potential, ie. ammo, its only utility is to be withdrawn to at least preserve it for credit appropriate to being able to fight another day. To do otherwise, even to save only one individual, is a GAMEY form of play in which the scenario at hand and playing it is the the only issue in consideration. Contradictorily, I find merit in some who have written in favor of approaches that have been labeled as gamey. CM is after all not *just* a game, but *inherently* a game, which has inescapably unrealistic dimensions and elements by virtue of which one can not escape playing in the gamey manner. Saying it differently, when we play we play gameyily as inescapably as those who play in cesspools inescapably play in, with and of their environment of domestic waste. And gladly. It is our choice. We revel in the fact that our cesspool smells better than anyone else's and justifiably so. Some of us try to not see the brown floaters drifting by and manage fairly well, as they are deceptively few and have a decent distance between. I find support enough for both those who would concede to incontrovertible fact that CM is a game, and revel in utilizing all its elements in competition with the AI, hotseat, or PBEM, and those who through self restraint would endeavor to attempt to the limits of the game engine to force play as close to *reality* as possible. While the former approach is rather a plain and simple matter of playing CM "as is" for the sake of play and enjoyment, the latter approach is a little more complex. I see it as influenced by a pair of motivations. The first is that best observed in our professional military members. This game in its excellent and unexcelled approach to being *the* realistic computer simulation of combat of its class, raises to a grand level the professional's enthusiastic and justified partisanship for play that is not finally play at all, but a rehearsal for combat -- a combat in which real lives and national interests are at stake in which getting it right is of more than passing and entertaining interest. That element alone, neglecting natural ego related issues, is enough to heat up discussions of differing views. The other aspect is the motivation of the historical buff, who either wants to relive history or at least adhere to the historically correct motif. It is a matter largely of immersion of the reliving mind into a game which is the best there is at assisting the imagination into believing itself *really* there. As we take our imperfectly informed minds into this fray we strain at pushing as closely into being there as possible. We employ our intellect and historical resources as far as energy and capability permits toward that goal, never mind the temptation to shortcuts that permit the comfortable illusion of arrival that demands a vigorous and sometimes emotional defense against all comers. That these differing attitudes and motivations should come in as many mixes as we have members participating here is not surprising. That we should employ all the fire and emotion as we do to satisfy our personal needs is right in line with the very human qualities that dispute over territory, culture, economic advantage, and just plain, cussed, human and ornery love of disputation we see in hot and cold wars and rivalries. The unrelenting diversity of all the combinations and permutations of our differing strains of approach to CM, even within the same individuals, perhaps within a single typed paragraph, guarantees all the elation, frustration, misunderstanding, anger and fine comradeship to be found in this and probably other forums. If I have any point to make out of this diatribe, it is that there is enough validity and error to go cover any need here, and a little understanding of the firm ground that stands under each of the outlined directions of approach to the game can make each of us a little richer in adding to our own sense of value, those of others. Realizing that each one has its imperfections and finally that the game itself being just that, a game, can only approach perfection for the for those who simplify their demands to enjoying a game. What a tribute, that CM tempts so many others to find cause in it to go for the illusion of reality and historical representation. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Futhermore, I find much merit in the observations here of the opportunity to make the great game even greater. A fine discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Hummmm, maybe have units in panic dropping morters, machine guns, and bazookas; and having broken units dropping all weapons. I am not too sure the latter is best without some toning down either in the move from panic to broken or in only losing some rifles - firepower. Maybe go automatically to low ammo. Panic is a rather drastic state and broken damned sure drastic and is now perhaps too easily fixed. There are degrees of panic and right now broken is more like extreme panic rather than broken. Broken troops perhaps should be more difficult to fix than they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Thinking further on the proposed Withdraw and Reateat changes, I suspect that a counter arguement can be made that the present withdraw command is based on giving the player a singular ability to act in place of the AI for instanious decision on the part of the squad leader with no delay from higher HQ. It also is the closest the game comes to giving the benifit of player selected SOP. That is, if a player desires his unit to act as though it is under a SOP command to pull out of contact as rapidly as possible after making it, then the present Withdraw command approaches it. There is a lot of conceptual ground to cover here in making any changes. Accepting one has implications that go beyond the simple issue that it addresses. Giving Steve and Charles credit: it is easy to sit on the sidelines on my part of the bench and have an opinion of how the game should be run. If you keep the entirety in mind as they have to do, simple suggestions are not maybe so simple as they seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 I use it too. Old ASL'ers will recognize it as the CM equivalent of the "volunatry break" command and it comes in handy at times - mostly to prevent your guys from getting surrounded and cut to pieces. A lot of times I want to retreat guys that aren't under all that much fire (or none at all) but for various reasons their state will impose a ridiculous 45sec - 75 sec delay in starting to move out. When that's not acceptable - use the withdraw order and get them out of danger in a hurry. It might not mean much in small quick-battles but in a campaign game or in a tournament game where the points really matter, it's handy. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epée Posted November 13, 2000 Share Posted November 13, 2000 Suggestion - why not permit that MMGs and HMGs be able to withdraw, when immobilized? Seeing that your position is desperate, one could abandon the maching gun and save its crew. Thoughts? Epee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnno Posted November 13, 2000 Share Posted November 13, 2000 Oh MY GOD, you're not going to believe this but after playing tons of Combat Mission for weeks (without so much as a day off.) I didn't even notice or forgot there was a 'withdraw' command? LOL I actually even loaded my game up to check, I really forgot it was there. So for an answer Coralsaw to "Should the withdraw command be... withdrawn?" I say yes! I have on several occasions fallen back with the run command though, survived and all, but I wonder if actually using the command would be all that more productive? Johnno out Visit my website Dogs of War http://persweb.direct.ca/johnnocm Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. - Private Jackson (The Snipers Prayer from Saving Private Ryan.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted November 13, 2000 Share Posted November 13, 2000 I've got some bad experience using withdraw. More often than not the squad withdrawing gets shot up, close to elimination, when it runs off. If they instead stay and fight they take one or two enemies with them. It's quite possible that I've waited too long to order the retreat and that it would have been more successful to do it sooner. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted November 13, 2000 Author Share Posted November 13, 2000 Good points were brought up. If withdraw is kept in the game, then IMO one should be able to withdraw tanks, and also have MGs and mortars drop their weapons. As realism is the Grail of CM, I don't see how the withdraw command fits the picture at all! I mean, how on earth can you instruct a group that's busy taking fire and hitting the dirt to immediately withdraw, without any delay. Let's say that the platoon leader has a strong voice, so it's OK when the team is in command. But how on earth would you issue an order for immediate withdrawal to a team that has advanced beyond command radius? This is not like simulating giving orders upfront, so they know what to do when the are out of command. This is a reactive command, so IMO it is totally unrealistic. ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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