IntelWeenie Posted July 27, 2000 Share Posted July 27, 2000 WRT the "Best Army" thread: "...the investigators revealed an atmosphere rife with low morale, drinking and discord between enlisted soldiers and officers." Reading that line reminded me of tales told of conditions in the Soviet Red Army. Guess what? It's the US Army! Read more at: http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/?file=FL_campbell_trimble ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted July 27, 2000 Share Posted July 27, 2000 Probably has a lot to do with the after effects of the gutting the Clinton Administration did to the Army (one of the reasons I got out when I did - Thanks for nothing, Bill ) Edits: smileys [This message has been edited by Mannheim Tanker (edited 07-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted July 27, 2000 Share Posted July 27, 2000 Yup thats exactly how Algore and the Lying King take credit for reducing the size of the Government Workforce. Just remember that the Army is part of that workforce. Bush For President Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted July 27, 2000 Share Posted July 27, 2000 Uh oh the rabid Clinton haters have arrived. _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Not Quite true my dear Dumbo, "rabid" indicates a diseased condition, where one is not quite in touch with reality. I think that discribes "Unser Fuerher" much better than it does his detractors. I'm not a big Bush fan, either, but I for one won't be voting Democrat this time around for sure. Of course, that may not be a surprise, as I never have before either. Zamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rommel22 Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 The military needs to be bigger and Soldiers need to be paid more, at least 50% more!!! i want to join the military. Every man and woman owns it to this country. Bush for President. I hate clinton, he first says he lows the military. Then uses the military to take focus of his screwing with other women. I mean his life is his life but lying about is the worst. I mean his is the president he should set a freking example. Well enough of that just vote Bush and Cheney. Cheney reminds me of eisenhower going on the battlefield during the war. I seen footage of him with Shwatrzkopf on the battle field in the desert during Desert Storm. Thats what we need people that actully get involved and care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderBill Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 While I also will not be supporting the continuance of the current administration, I think that the current state of decline in military readiness started during the last Bush(George) adminstration. In 1990-91 the first round of manpower cuts occurred. As a captain at the time my year group was targetted with a series of voluntary and involuntary separations. This wasn't Bush's fault but was the result of political pressure from a Democratic congress clamoring for the so-called "peace dividend" after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Yes, I agree that the current administration accelerated the process and took it even further than it should have been allowed to go. I just feel that it should be correctly pointed out that the current down-sized military is the result of a process that started almost immediately after Desert Storm prior to the current administration. ------------------ ...But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks, 'Play up! Play up! and play the game!' Vitai Lampada--Sir Henry Newboldt Play the game! Motto of 1st Bn, 50th Infantry, US Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzer_2nd_ss Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 clinton is stupid and so is tree hugging gore. and another thing, women shouldnt be allowed in the army in fighting roles, that was another one of clintons bright ideas. i think clinton has lowered the defense budget by like 45 percent. vote bush , better yet vote buchannan. oh and i played the demo and it is great, cant wait to get the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 What a cozy little camp fire we got here. One or two of you guys could do with at least a third grade education. Los (Talking about our resident trolls) [This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
able Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Well as the U.S. still has the biggest firepower of any nation out there by far it could probably do with a bit of shrinking. Just about every other army has been doing the same. After all, armies are very expensive things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 LOL Los.With any luck,this thread will be closed soon,as it is the very definition of off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 I'm just amazed the gun control debate hasn't spring up yet! (No, that's not an invitation...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelU Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Wasn't downsizing (sacking people) a feature of a lot of U.S. companies in the last decade? It seems the military is not immune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 28, 2000 Author Share Posted July 28, 2000 Sorry, didn't intend this as a "Bash Clinton" thread. Rather, I thought it to be an interesting tidbit relating to the thread about the "Best Armies in the World". Most people take pride in their nation's armed forces, and I thought it would be illustrative to point out how bad conditions are (and have been for a LONG time) in the US Army. I've been out since '94, but I still remember that even then nearly 1/2 of the married soldiers in my company were on food stamps and drinking in the barracks was rampant. ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelU Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 I've never done military service so perhaps some others who have can add to this, but in South Africa most of my friends did some sort of military service and they all said drinking was rife. The main cause seemed to be boredom. Posted to some one horse town, no females in sight, dull job, therefore turn to drink. These were conscripts, but my brother was in the medical services and reckons the permanent force soldiers were even worse when it came to drinking. Perhaps it's not so much the U.S. army now with drinking rife as armies throughout time. Drink during war because of stress, drink during peacetime because of boredom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 From everything I've heard and read, drinking comes with the territory for soldiers, with the possible exceptions of Saudi Arabia, Iran, the Taliban et al. For instance, in Nelson's navy, once the crew got into the spirit locker, you knew the jig was up. More recently, every GI in France hoped to stumble onto a nice cellar of Cognac somewhere along the way; their Wehrmacht counterparts were equally culpable (see, e.g., Featherston, "Batttle for Mortain") The issue of the current quality/state of readiness of America's armed forces is a complex one, and deserves better than a load of "yah boo sucks nyah nyah nyah", even if our current Fearless Leader may deserve less... ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxm2 Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Righto to the last two posts. Often when some terrible situation is "discovered" in some part of society, it existed all along, just wasn't focused on. I thought the original post was from the latter part of the Vietnam war, when morale seemed to be declining, drug use was increasing, fragging officers started appearing, etc. I believe the latter part of the war was under two Republican presidents, one of whom made Clinton look like a naughty kid.... [This message has been edited by maxm2 (edited 07-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxm2: {snip} I believe the latter part of the war was under two Republican presidents, one of whom made Clinton look like a naughty kid.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't want this thread to explode into a political lockup, but lets just say that the above statement is a value judgement rather than an objective relation of fact. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Just a little (what should be freaking obvious) observation re: drinking in Armies being rife. When you get any group of 18-25 year olds together or for that matter any group of guys, drinking will be rife. It's hardly the sole purvue of the military. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los: Just a little (what should be freaking obvious) observation re: drinking in Armies being rife. When you get any group of 18-25 year olds together or for that matter any group of guys, drinking will be rife. It's hardly the sole purvue of the military. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wasn't implying that drinking was solely a military phenomenon. But some people seem to think that because soldiers have discipline, they don't drink and that conversely, if soldiers drink there must be a serious discipline problem. This is clearly an erroneous conclusion, unless the drinking routinely takes place while on duty. I think Wellington would have been worried if his soldiers didn't drink. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Just out of curiosity, what would an Ensign in the U.S. Navy straight out of OCS (or ROTC, even) earn as a salary? -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley, people! Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 28, 2000 Author Share Posted July 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k: Just out of curiosity, what would an Ensign in the U.S. Navy straight out of OCS (or ROTC, even) earn as a salary? -Andrew <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably a lot less than if he was manager of a video store or a McDonalds... I really have no idea what the current pay scales are, but when I lef the army as a SGT (E-5) with 7yrs, I made just under $18k/yr (including language pay). An O-1 with less than 2 yrs service made around $22k/yr, I think. Of course, this low pay is somewhat made up for when housing, medical and food costs are factored in. ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted July 29, 2000 Share Posted July 29, 2000 My friend is in the Navy and her husband is a newly commisioned Ensign. While their pay may not be high, they each get $500 per month for housing and $300 per month for food, tax free. That $9600 dollars tax free is equivalent to about $15,000 per year before taxes. So each of them makes in the mid-$30,000s per year. I'd also like to mention that all this Clnton bashing about military budget cuts is misplaced. A large reason we have a balanced budget is the spending caps put in over 10 years ago - before Clinton was President. ANY president would have had to deal with these spending caps. Jason [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 07-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richlop Posted July 29, 2000 Share Posted July 29, 2000 "...the investigators revealed an atmosphere rife with low morale, drinking and discord between enlisted soldiers and officers." Sounds like the Army to me. I kind of wonder if this isn't always true, regardless of who's in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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