CavScout Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 Why can't your tanks drive through flames? I understand it with infantry... but tanks? Some how in the current OP I am in, the road has caught fire and I can't move out. Both sides are covered in woods... requiring back-tracking way to far to continue... Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 I dunno.... I would think that tank's crew would be mighty nervous about through fire. I'd hate for some petroleum products, i.e., grease, fuel, ect to catch on fire,or fire to enter through the escape hatch on the bottom. Better yet, how 'bout getting stuck by some unseen rubble? Boy that would ruin my day..... Not that it is a qualified source, but in Squad Leader, AFV's can't be in a hex with a fire in it, if that's any help.... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 Not to mention the fact that if the fire is big enough there'll be a serious shortage of oxygen in the middle of it. Now THAT could stall even the best engine. Sten ------------------ Keep your whisky on the rocks and your tanks on the roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 Tanks are all metal, leaking oil and what-not from underneath the engine compartment. Stick a iron bar into a fire for a minute then grab it. -johnS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailz Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 hmmmm... I'm in a big metal box full of explosives... let's drive around in a flaming ruin... Hell, I don't even like driving on a hot day without the A/C on. Sheesh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 CavScout, you've been watching too many Hollywood movies. =) David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 CavScout said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why can't your tanks drive through flames? I understand it with infantry... but tanks?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I, too, question this, spending as I do a fair amount of time dealing with grass, crop, and brush fires As discussed in the Burning Fields thread, grass and non-ripe crop tiles should pose little or no movement problem to even infantry. Ripe crops would be a problem for infantry, but not, I think, to tanks. The reason for this is that with these types of fires, the fire is confined to a thin ring around the point of origin. For short plants like grass, growing grain, and post-harvest stubble, the fire ring is small enough for men to walk through or jump over with no problem. And tanks could smash right through the bigger fires in ripe grain fields. I didn't say this in the other thread but I don't see it being a problem, and I've seen enough combat film footage of this happening. In such situations, the time of exposure to the flame is only a couple of seconds, so the heat wouldn't get to the crew or do more than scorch the paint of the tank. Burning brush and tree tiles, OTOH, are a different matter. In these tiles, the entire tile would be burning at once. This would be pretty much impassable due to heat, lack of oxygen, and presence of poison gases, even for vehicles. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Check6 Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Prairie grass fires (only when dry, I suppose) are actually just about impassable to men because of the density of flammable material and resulting intense flame and heat. The hot air itself would burn a man... imagine opening up your oven when it's on the self-cleaning cycle and putting your head near the door for five or ten seconds. Once a grass fire gets going it is really intense. And as for tanks - I know that I would drive through any kind of flames more than six inches high with the greatest hesitation. I think the grease on the treads would catch very easily. And if you start burning anywhere you're very screwed. It's my opinion that the representation of fire areas is very decent. However, a couple things: Could small fires go out after a bit? Could roads be prevented from catching fire? I think that that is certainly rather unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: Why can't your tanks drive through flames? I understand it with infantry... but tanks? Some how in the current OP I am in, the road has caught fire and I can't move out. Both sides are covered in woods... requiring back-tracking way to far to continue... Cav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this whole issue would come down to more of a matter of 'mechanics' than anything else. BTS (and I'm sure most everyone else), would not want AFVs moving into and staying in a 'burning' tile. So the tile is basically coded as impassable. How do you code the ability to move 'through' the fire, without also allowing vehicles simply to be in a burning tile (which I think most agree would not be healthy, nor allowable) Supposing this could be worked out, it would then require vehicle specific coding as many perhaps might not feel that trucks should be able to drive through fire, while buttoned tanks could do it without much trouble. As well, then, you'd have to modify AI behaviour as regards fire, and that would open up a new can of worms. I would agree that an AFV might be able to charge through certain 'fire' situations, but reflecting this in the game might be more difficult to do realistically. ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 gawd damn, we have grass grogonards here, what has the world come too! PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 A real world experience: My unit was having desert training at Ft. Huachuca (sp) Arizona. I was in an AT company (TOW Abn) and we were training in the same area as some M-60A3s. Somehow or another, the brush caught on fire and we were task at putting it out. We weren't really making any headway with shovels when the armor came to our support. One of the M-60s drove into the middle of the fire and after a couple of 360s -poof, no more fire.. As I recall, this was maybe knee-high grass/brush. OTOH, these treadheads were Nat'l Guard troops ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Check6 said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Prairie grass fires (only when dry, I suppose) are actually just about impassable to men because of the density of flammable material and resulting intense flame and heat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed. I'd put this in the same category as a burning brush tile and make such things impassable. But pastures don't have grass nearly that thick--the livestock eats it. Because grass tiles in CM seem to represent pastures, I think they should be quite passable to both men and vehicles. Burning pastures around here are, anyway. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And as for tanks - I know that I would drive through any kind of flames more than six inches high with the greatest hesitation. I think the grease on the treads would catch very easily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Remember, this grease has to stand up to pretty intense friction heat just from the tank moving under normal conditions. And even if it did catch fire a bit, the next revolution of the track will press it down into the ground and snuff the fire. Anyway, I've seen a number of AFVs drive through grass fires with no ill effects. Same with firetrucks, for that matter. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Seanachai said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think this whole issue would come down to more of a matter of 'mechanics' than anything else. BTS (and I'm sure most everyone else), would not want AFVs moving into and staying in a 'burning' tile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Remember, for grass and crop fires, the whole field (or tile) isn't burning, just a very thin ring of fire somewhere in it. So being "in" a burning tile of this type does NOT mean the vehicle or troop unit is sitting in a roaring fire. It would only appear so due to the graphics used for fire always covering the whole tile. As for game mechanics, I don't see this being a problem. A tile arleady has movement effects based on its terrain type. As it stands now, if the tile catches on fire, these effects values are replaced by "impassable". I propose that instead the movement effects change by 0 or a very small amount. So the movement mechanics would be the same. As for the LOS effects, I'd leave them the same as now. Even though there isn't much fire, it still makes a lot of smoke. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Supposing this could be worked out, it would then require vehicle specific coding as many perhaps might not feel that trucks should be able to drive through fire, while buttoned tanks could do it without much trouble.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, I don't think this is much of a problem. Terrain already affects different types of units in different ways. For example, grunts can move on slopes but vehicles can't. As for effects on various types of units, I think fires in grass and short crop tiles shouldn't be impassable to any type of unit so there's no need for specific coding. Fires in tall crops tiles (a seasonal thing) should only be passable by AFVs IMHO. Remember, in all these fires, we're talking about only having to move through a thin ring of fire, only a few inches to a few feet thick. On the other side there's no fire. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted September 4, 2000 Author Share Posted September 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: CavScout, you've been watching too many Hollywood movies. =) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't know about that... drove my Bradley through a few grass fires... Anyways, this was a ROAD. You should be able to haul butt through it, IMO. Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted September 4, 2000 Author Share Posted September 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: Tanks are all metal, leaking oil and what-not from underneath the engine compartment. Stick a iron bar into a fire for a minute then grab it. -johnS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am not advocating parking in it... driving through it. Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted September 4, 2000 Author Share Posted September 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Check6: Prairie grass fires (only when dry, I suppose) are actually just about impassable to men because of the density of flammable material and resulting intense flame and heat. The hot air itself would burn a man... imagine opening up your oven when it's on the self-cleaning cycle and putting your head near the door for five or ten seconds. Once a grass fire gets going it is really intense. And as for tanks - I know that I would drive through any kind of flames more than six inches high with the greatest hesitation. I think the grease on the treads would catch very easily. And if you start burning anywhere you're very screwed. It's my opinion that the representation of fire areas is very decent. However, a couple things: Could small fires go out after a bit? Could roads be prevented from catching fire? I think that that is certainly rather unrealistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know... I was part of many a fire crew stomping out grass fires on the firing ranges... Secondly, I don't think the grease is that flamable... Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Wrong thread! SORRY [This message has been edited by ACTOR (edited 09-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead: As for effects on various types of units, I think fires in grass and short crop tiles shouldn't be impassable to any type of unit so there's no need for specific coding. Fires in tall crops tiles (a seasonal thing) should only be passable by AFVs IMHO. Remember, in all these fires, we're talking about only having to move through a thin ring of fire, only a few inches to a few feet thick. On the other side there's no fire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I read your posts in the other thread about fires, and I tend to agree with you on your observations and points. I'm just trying to foresee whether there'd be any big problems for changing the tile characteristics. There are seperate 'burning' tiles for different types of terrain, so maybe changing the model for one or two wouldn't be that tough, not sure. I have a feeling anything with 'fire' is just in as impassable, but maybe that was just expediency, rather than a hard and fast requirement. Shall be interested to see how or if this is addressed. ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 On the subject of moving through grass fires, here's an actual combat photo of a MkIII and at least 1 grunt moving through a grass fire on the steppes of Russia. And note that the photographer probably has already gone through it himself, because he's in front of the tank. Anyway, this shot clearly shows several things. First, that grass fires do not involve entire tiles but are just rings of fire with grass on 1 side and ash on the other. Second, the tank is moving through without any fire clinging to track grease. If any such fire had started, it would be clearly visible because the part of the track that went through the fire is now up on top of the return rollers. Third, the tank is not buttoned--the commander's hatch is open at least. Finally, even though the fire is small, it's producing a fair amount of smoke. I hope you enjoy this shot. I had to razor it out of a perfectly good book to show you ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 09-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Seanachai said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have a feeling anything with 'fire' is just in as impassable, but maybe that was just expediency, rather than a hard and fast requirement. Shall be interested to see how or if this is addressed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it will be. It would really be something if they changed it. A true grognardian realism feature. I myself didn't think twice about the accuracy of fully burning, impassable grass and crop hexes and tiles until I joined a fire department a year ago and started dealing with such fires on a regular basis. So I can understand how most folks would be skeptical of my proposal, or would complain loudly of "unrealistic terrain" if BTS implemented it ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Is that photo a publicity photo or an actual combat photo? The reason I'm asking is that in addition to any fire hazzard involved, running through a fire obscures the tank crew's vision. Great, they made it through, but what's on the other side? In combat, I think crews would be a lot more cautious than in training. They would tend to avoid any shakey situations and go around the fire...... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is that photo a publicity photo or an actual combat photo?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> According to the caption, it's a combat photo from the IWM. I agree. It has that battlefield look about it. Had it been a publicity shot taken behind the lines, I think it would have been better staged, better in focus, and more dramatic over-all. BTW, there are numerous other combat photos showing Germans advancing through steppe grass fires, many in color like this one. I'm sure you can find them if you look. I just picked this one because it best illustrates my point about grass fires not engulfing entire tiles at once. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The reason I'm asking is that in addition to any fire hazzard involved, running through a fire obscures the tank crew's vision. Great, they made it through, but what's on the other side? In combat, I think crews would be a lot more cautious than in training. They would tend to avoid any shakey situations and go around the fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, the same could be said of any smokescreen. Which is what a grass fire is more than anything else. But smokescreens don't have such dramatic effects on unit movement. If they did, then you could make your positions immune from direct assault simply by firing smoke in front of them and sighting all your weapons on the ends of the screen, where the enemy would be forced to go due to fear of moving through the smoke. This clearly isn't the case; in fact smokescreens are an aid to the attacker. So I doubt many troops chose to go around a fire simply due to fear of what was on the other side of the smoke. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Good point......... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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