Freak Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 I just played an 800 point QB as the germans the other night. I was at the end of the scenario and had emiminated all american tanks except a halftrack, when I had a panther(a) knocked out by a 50 caliber machine gun. Or at least I think. I replayed the 10 second sequence a number of times but I just could not follow or see the shot. I was miffed on who or where that shot came from. The only thing I had could see or had in my site was a 50 caliber machine gun team. A few turns later I found a halftrack close by being pursued quickly by a Tiger. I easily brewed up the halftrack, but I wonder if that halftrack had knocked out my Panther. Can a 50 caliber machine gun knock out a Panther? I thought this to be very unlikely but I guess in CM it is possible. I am not sure if it was the 2 man machine gun team or it was the halftrack. I forget what the halftrck has as weaponry, but I think I remember it having a 30 caliber and a 50 caliber on board. Does a 50 caliber machine gun knock out a Panther(a)? This Panther was not immobilized it was knocked out. [This message has been edited by Freak (edited 11-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacMac Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 If true, that would be an astounding bit of luck! Was there any artillery being fired by either side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 20, 2000 Author Share Posted November 20, 2000 Not that I know of. I don't think there was. My Panther was facing the .50 caliber machine gun up a slight gradual hill/slope at about 75 to 125 mm. The halftrack was, if it had a shot, on my left probably in the 20 to 50 mm range. The thing is the halftrack which I found a few turns later if it fired at my Panther did not come up on my LOS. (as the yellow line that is) [This message has been edited by Freak (edited 11-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 20, 2000 Author Share Posted November 20, 2000 Sorry mistake double post. [This message has been edited by Freak (edited 11-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 If you still have a save game from the end you could always look at the Kill info for the enemy units and you may be able to find who popped the Panther. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Sounds more likely that this is a FOW issue. Probably something you never saw popped the Panther. The .50 cal's penetration at close range was something like ~14mm, IIRC, so it would have to get damn lucky to punch through a Panther. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 It sounds virtually impossible. But then that's almost my opinion regarding the use of rifle grenades most anywhere on heavy tanks (a Panther's technically a medium tank, but it was well-armored by the day's standards), and I've been told sternly that I'm all wet there. Freak, what message did you receive re specific damage to the tank when your Panther died? That might give a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Sorry but I just find it slightly irritating when people come here posting before they think one second and solve their problem in another 15 seconds: do as MadMatt suggested, save the game under soem name, ALT-U the current game immediately and check through the enemy teams' kill scores to see who got your Panther. A .50cal is unlikely to kill a Panther, slight chance from the rear, or maybe from the top. I had 50cals kill StuGs and Jagdpanzer from the rear respectively, but a Panther? gotta check the armor stats, but it seems unlikely to me. ------------------ "Im off to NZ police collage" (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 hold up......knocked out, or abandoned? There is quite a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Was it a conscript Panther crew? *grin* -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Smith Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 You obviously haven't been reading the posts on this board over the last few months. As we all know, CM does 'dispel alot of myths concerning the superiority of German organizations and equipment." If truth be known (and CM does know the truth), German panther tanks were often knocked out by: obsolete French WW1 artillery pieces, Maori machetes wielded by British 14 year old conscripts, American propoganda leaflets (though only when hitting the weak portion of armor over the engine compartment), and WACs in desperation throwing the P-38 (otherwise known as the C-ration can opener). Your observation of the tank being hit by 50 caliber machine gun fire is nothing-if nothing else, it should be expected. CM accurately portrays the absolute invincibility of the Hetzer and U.S. Pershing tanks, but also reveals the previously ignored weak spot on the front armor of the Tiger tank, which allowed them to be knocked out by the 45 caliber pistol (Patton was known to have destroyed an entire battalion of Tiger tanks in Tunisia in 1943-a fact which has been suppressed up til now by pro-German propagandist historians). Lighten up-revel in the near invincibility of the American halftrack and the superiority of American armored cars to all enemy equipment! Enjoy the turret speed differential which essentially renders all German armor useless on the battlefield! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Now wait a second. Bullets can do some pretty strange things. Remember the magic bullet theory? Potentially, this 50 cal shell could have penetrated a view slit on the front of the Panther, banged around a bit inside, traveled down the gunners ladder, bounced off the gun breech, hit the driver in the back of the head, nearly missing a 76 cal shell, traveling then to the rear of the tank killing the commander, whereupon it exits through the commanders boot and bounces off the fire extinguisher and kills the loader, who inturn falls backwards and knocks a Walther P-38 off a ledge which accidentally discharges killing the last remaining Panther crew member before exiting out the tail pipe and wounding an innocent mechanic. Where, it then falls out of his forearm, and into his lap which he holds up with a grin. Jeeeze guys, it doesn't take the Warren Commission to figure that one out! ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 11-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Maybe it was something completly different. I've already lost vehicles by technical problems before a single shot was fired, the crew left the tank, and I ask myself what the damn was the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 If the .50 hit the TC, forcing the tank to button (and be shocked) and in the same turn immobilized the tank (which is possible with a .50 cal) then the crew may have decided they were getting the hell out. What were the crew casualties when it bailed? ------------------ Slayer of the Original Cesspool Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Mauldin Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Most likely it was hit by something that none of your troops saw. I've found that if that happens you won't see any yellow lines leading to the victim in question no matter how many times you replay the movie. I had a Sherman get brewed up once and never did see the shot. Obviously no one saw the shot except maybe the now dead crew. ------------------ Randy aka Prairiedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 It would be impossible for a .50 cal to directly knock out a Panther. In spite of the sarcastic post by Mr. Smith (who appears to have lost his "invincible" Tigers one too many times due to a lack of good tactics), there is nothing in the code that would allow for such a kill. "Weak Spots" and other such things can result in a rare kill, but only if the weapon in question packs enough punch. Against the Panther I am sure this is absolutely not possible to do. My best guess is that something unknown to you (Fog of War) zapped your Panther. Either that or it was an issue with the crew being reduced. If the crew was reduced to 3 men, which would cause it to be Abandoned. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stephen Smith: I am really bad at handling tanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Steve, you are totally right, German armour was invincible. CM is trash. I wish they got this right. After all, as we all know, because of their invincible armour the Germans won the war and every single battle from Stalingrad, to Kursk, to Normandy, to the Bulge. (Please note: the above post contains sarcasm and irony. It is not intended to be taken at face value. The amount of laughter can vary. Past laughter is not a guide to future amusement.) ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Hypothetical situation which I don't think CM models: Suppose a .50 cal round went down the barrel of the panther and either struck the round that was loaded or richocheted inside the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 Hell in my very first game of CM once I got the rlease CD, I had a Panther that got knocked out by a flamthrower that was hiding in a house. It was a catostrophic explosion at that. But Steve is correct, I don't think a .50 MG can knock out even a medium tank. It may have been a rifle grenade or even a regular hand grenade. I've had instances where my tanks have been next to building were an enemy infantry squad chucks a grenade out at my tank and it detonates underneath the soft underbelly and then the crew ABANDONS the vehicle after taking a couple casulaties. ------------------ --"We want information." --"Information." --"Information." --"Who are you?" --"The new Number 2." --"Who is Number 1?" --"You are Number 6." --"I am not a number, I am a free man!" --"Hahahahahahahaha." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 20, 2000 Share Posted November 20, 2000 What if the MG crew stuck it's finger in the barrel? ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Having played people like Mr. Smith before, one of which ran crying from the gaming table at SunCoast Skirmishes 1987 when my M10 killed his KT at 10 hexes from the side (it was unfair because M10's "never" killed KTs), I can say that there will always be the "German's are invincible group" knocking around at the fringes of gaming society, and even a larger group that get slightly miffed when the Germans loose, but take it like adults. Freak though has a legit question, one which is answered by Matt. I just tried it though with a run of 40 bogged Panthers facing 40 M2HB at 100 yards. While I was able to get a few a few gun kills, no outright kills resulted in 4 turns of firing from the front, or from the back. Conclusion: something else probably blasted you. As has been mentioned, a few infantry close by can take out a tank, both historically and in CM -- the Germans never let their tanks roam about without infantry support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Smith Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Jeez- Don't you guys have a sense of humor? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio: Maybe it was something completly different. I've already lost vehicles by technical problems before a single shot was fired, the crew left the tank, and I ask myself what the damn was the reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Boredom. That's why they walked out on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stephen Smith: Jeez- Don't you guys have a sense of humor? Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I thought it was pretty funny... Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't you guys have a sense of humor?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh I thought it was funny, but I also thought you were serious Without a few smilies in such a post I unfortunately have to take it seriously. Why? Because 9 out of 10 times it is really meant to be serious Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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