Maximus Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 I played "Cambois" this afternoon, Polish vs Germans, and boy do the polish infantry troops suck or what? I mean they turn around and run when they just get shot at. Needless to say, the company of men I had was about useless. Of a squad that had 10 men, when they took a couple (2) casualties, they freakin' ROUTED! I had to do everything with my tanks and scout vehicles. Anybody else come to this conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 There's no difference between Polish, German, American, British, Canadian and French troops. None of them are any more brave or competent than any other as modeled in CM. ------------------ I've got far more annoying things than that up my sleeve. -Meeks You must wear awfully loose shirts to fit an oompah band up your sleeve. -Chrisl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Nothing to do with the commander?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 I had figured that underneath it all, basically the infantry were programmed with the same parameters and the Nationality distinction was purely visual. But, I'm in a QB at the moment, and my opponent had some Polish infantry rush my position and I swear I've never seen infantry run so fast. Only thing missing was the short spear and Isandlwana in the background. Had to tell my Panzergrenadiers to form square! ------------------ "Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben" Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf") Bruno Weiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 bear in mind, inf run faster down hill as well PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 I played a PBEM quick battle where I was the Germans and my opponent took the Polish. We were both had regular troops and they hung in practically to the last man. I withstood assualt after assualt dishing out some high losses but they kept coming back and finally I was forced off the victory location in the final two turns. I compliment the Commander and his troops for a well fought battle. So perhaps it is more the leadership than the nationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: There's no difference between Polish, German, American, British, Canadian and French troops. None of them are any more brave or competent than any other as modeled in CM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have to say I'm a little disappointed to hear that. I remember Squad Leader going to some length to show the differences in the way that troops of different nationalities behaved on the battlefield. Is this something that is being considered for addition to CM2? In my opinion it would add to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 While I agree with you Subvet, I think it would be very difficult to model without running into cries of racism. ------------------ I've got far more annoying things than that up my sleeve. -Meeks You must wear awfully loose shirts to fit an oompah band up your sleeve. -Chrisl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 I've never thought of this before, but I see how this could play a BIGGER part in CM than most of us realize. There WERE obvious differences between nationalities. You can't tell me that in CM2, or in CM3 Italian troops will be able to fight as well as the German, or other nationalities' troops. It just wasn't historically accurate. Rommel even commented on the differences between German, British, and Italian troops. Commanders were exasperated at the quickness of Italian troops to surrender, and/or leave their positions. To have groups, such as the Italians (*who did fight well in some circumstances*), fight the same as other nationaliites in WW2 would be to ignore all of the drawbacks that came with commanding these, specifically the Italian, armies. Morale, trainining, and determination for their cause to fight all played a huge part in the ability of troops of different nations. And to this effect, I believe that there should be differences between nationalities themselves, and still more differences of fighting ability WITHIN these nationalities in different time periods. For example, I believe that undertrained and ill-equipped REGULAR German soldiers should have a morale drop in April 1945, and should be much more willing to surrender on the battlefield. To opposite ends, there should be some troops that become MORE fanatic as the war draws to a close, as their country, their entire way of life, is at stake. As it stands right now, CM doesn't model this. To ignore obvious differences between overall national troop morale, and determination between troops of different nationalaities and time periods would in itself be ahistorical. Commanders during WW2 tailored some of their tactics, strategies, and battles to the known skills, specialties, and inclinations of the troops at their disposals. All of the troops of each nation weren't the same, and their commanders had to take into account their troops' abilities and morale when forming many of their battle plans. As I mention below, Rommel found the Italian troops ill-suited for attack, or advancing maneuvers. But they were suitable enough for his tastes when put into strongly-built, defensible positions bolstered by German men and materiel. Instances like these will play a GIANT part in CM where, if the soldiers are portrayed as uniformly between nationalities as they are now, players commanding the Italians will be able to advance and overrun the British when historically it didn't happen all that often. Battles will be completely decided by the weapons, numbers, and quality of materiel possessed by a side, and will be lacking the ALL important aspect of a nationalities', and an armies' morale as a whole. Any thoughts?? Thanks, Jim p.s. *Off topic, but Rommel did find some success with Italian troops in stongly supported defensive positions while being bolstered by German troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 I think that this whole nationality issue is sorta moot. In pre-designed scenarios, the author can easily make soldiers from different nationalities behave how he'd like them to behave. Want the Desert Rats to walk all over the Italians? Simple enough, make the Italians green and conscript and the Brits vets and crack. Want to model Germans desperately fighting for their homeland? Easy, make them fanatical. In QBs, I don't think it would be a good idea to model one nationality as being intrinsically different from another, because that would seriously hose multiplayer battles. I mean, who's gonna want to be the Italians if all they do is run and quiver a lot while the Matildas gun them down? Also, QBs, IMO should be fairly generic, what-if kinda things. If I want my elite Italian mandolin-pluckers to wipe out a horde of green English tea-quaffers, so be it. My own take. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted October 28, 2000 Author Share Posted October 28, 2000 I think you all missed my point. What happened was this... I attempted to run an entire platoon from one treeline to the next. They came under fire (crossfire, I think it was) from an unbeknownst position and they took very limited casualties, they turned tail and FREAKIN' ROUTED!!! I mean, not PINNED, CAUTIOUS, or even PANIC, they freakin' ROUTED! BTW, they were at least REGULAR or maybe even VETERAN troops and they still ROUTED! Now you tell me that there isn't somewhat of a nationality or quality programed into the behavior of these troops. I've also noticed that British troops do the same thing quite often as well. Ironically, the Free French seem to fight better than even the British. Maybe it's that they wear the same uniform as the '44 pattern American troops. You think? ------------------ "Rule#3: You must be a member of my Meta Campaign to take part.(doh!)" - Rob/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Um, tough break, better luck next time? Nationalities are not modelled differently besides equipment/organization, I feel pretty secure saying that. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Meeks said: "While I agree with you Subvet, I think it would be very difficult to model without running into cries of racism." Where's the racism? They're all white guys. Maybe you mean culturism. ------------------ Let them eat money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Maximus wrote: > Now you tell me that there isn't somewhat of a nationality or quality programed into the behavior of these troops. I've also noticed that British troops do the same thing quite often as well. Ironically, the Free French seem to fight better than even the British. Maybe it's that they wear the same uniform as the '44 pattern American troops. So you think BTS have modelled Polish and British troops as cowards, and anyone wearing an American uniform as a bulletproof hero? ------------------ Somewhere between a joke and a conspiracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Lawyer wrote: > Where's the racism? They're all white guys. Maybe you mean culturism. Race is not dependent on physical appearance. It can refer to nationality as well. David ------------------ Somewhere between a joke and a conspiracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted October 29, 2000 Author Share Posted October 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: So you think BTS have modelled Polish and British troops as cowards, and anyone wearing an American uniform as a bulletproof hero? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, if you say so. All, I'm saying is that I basically use the same tactics with my infantry with one country as the next. And with similar experience levels. So what I'm saying is that the American troops don't seem to "crack" as QUICKLY (<-Keyword here.) as do British and Polish troops. I mean, how can one mount an assualt if your infantry start fleeing and routing when they get the first shot fired at them? ------------------ "Rule#3: You must be a member of my Meta Campaign to take part.(doh!)" - Rob/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 And I'm saying that you had bad luck. I've seen absolutely no difference in how troops of different nationalities, but of the same experience level, perform. None. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Supposedly, it was noted that Americans cracked easily, but, recovered quickly, and the British were harder to crack, but, took longer to recover. If you believe in this sort of dribble... There can be no 100% factor to determine what one nationality will do in a certain situation. The US forces at Kasserine Pass were totally routed, and fairly easily. Some US formations (103rd Division?) were wiped out without much of a fight at the Ardennes, while others stood firm. You can't say for 100% how a certain nation's troops will behave in a battle. What most probably happened in Maximus' game, is, that the formation was advancing along a route covered completely by enemy guns, were caught in the open, from multiple sides, by an enemy that they couldn't see. (From what I gather from the description) That would route just about any force you put in there. You can't say for 100% that an American force with the same experience, in EXACTLY the same situation would not do the same thing. You can make it similar, but, it is impossible to get EVERY factor correct. Possibly you have to learn different tactics to maximise the strengths of these different squads/platoons? Remember, only a poor commander blames his troops for his defeats [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 10-28-2000).] [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 10-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 First off, Combat Mission does not distinguish any sort of inherit nationality bonus or ability modifier. To do so would be prove to be far too artificial for the following reasons. Regardless of nationality, An Elite unit will kick the ass of a conscript unit. This has come up many times in the past and nationality has nothing to do with it. It is all about battlefield readiness and experience and command ability. You can take a platoon from the legendary Waffen SS Sturm-Gerbilwerfers that are just conscripts and you know what this unit will be? A bunch of scared kids that pee down their pants at the first sounds of battle. That's what conscripts are! On the other hand, give me a Crack or Elite squad from the US's hardluck Moron Battalion and they will be just that, battle tested vets that will get a job done. You can not simply look at a military body's nationality and say "Unit A is going to be better than Unit B just because they come from a different country." It just doesn't work that way. Sure elements like training and doctrine come into play and that's we we have the wide range of unit experiences that we do. You think every Waffen SS unit were die hards? You think ever Italian infantry man was a coward? Then you don't know war. Any side in war is going to be composed of all sorts of men and units of differing abilities and it is criminal to throw out blanket assessments of an entire nations caliber of troops. War isn't pretty, and every nation involved has both cowards and heroes and just guys that want to make it through another day alive. It's all about experience. All things being equal, units that have it will outperform units that don't. Pretty simple formula really. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Maximus.... I think its operator error... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdwyrm Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Oh yeah thats the ticket! Thats why Bruno's beating the hell outta me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Madmatt, how could you Everyone knows that it's the SS Sturm-Hamsterwerfer's, NOT Gerbilwerfers! Have you forgotten all your history? Sheesh, there goes my respect for you! PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Lawyer wrote: > Where's the racism? They're all white guys. Maybe you mean culturism. Race is not dependent on physical appearance. It can refer to nationality as well. David <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, David, race has nothing to do with nationality. Do you think all the people in Europe are different races? Would that make for 30 races in Europe? 40, 50, or how about expanding into Russia? How many there? How about Africa or Asia? No, race is a term that has been misused for modern political reasons having nothing to do with race. Now, long ago when I was in school, they taught there were three races -- caucasoid, negroid, and asian. Have the genes changed or has the current view of them changed? Something worth thinking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Stop pondering your bigotry Lawyer, and send me a turn.... You can call people negroids on your own time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Well i think dull troops are just as good as the polished ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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