Who uses scouts? Everyone except me?

[joeski]

Playing in PBEM games, all meeting engagements so far. I never scout ahead. And the one time I tried they got smoked. After going through the archives of this forum. It seems like I should be using scouts. (split squads, sharpshooters) I normally try and get into defensive positions around the victory flags and set ambushes, or out flank my opponent. I also recently tried one of pillars suggestions and let my opponent take the VL and the pummel him with arty and inf/armor. It seems to be working so far. The reason I don't use them is mainly terrain concerns. I can never see how I could get my "scouts" far enough ahead to be effective without being spotted to early. And once I get the scout in position how do you get him out? So what do you think/do?

------------------

"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey

[PeterNZer]

Maybe you're trying to get your scouts too far ahead. Sometimes you don't need to advance them too far before they are usefull. Remember, he's also advancing towards you.. so keep those scouts a bit closer where they can retreat to safety with your men, or be covered by your forces?

PeterNZ

[engy]

Oh, great. Two of my PBEM opponents in here collaborating on scouts and, soon no doubt, how to effectively eliminate mine.

*Gets his billy club. Points to the signpost nearby*

"OK. Move outta here. Can't you read? It says 'NO LOITERING' That means you two boys. Now, go! And don't let me catch you hanging around here together again!"

*Looks menacing* (which is a lot more than he's done in his PBEM's so far, eh, you two?)

engy

------------------

"He who makes war without many mistakes has not made war very long."

Napoleon Bonaparte

[Guest Pillar]

Ah, glad to see someone learning the value of scouts, albeit the hard way

Your scouts will tell you one very important thing: Where your enemy IS NOT.

During an attack this information is absolutely *crucial* to success. If you commit your main body into his defence, you'll be looking at kill ratios of 3:1 or higher for the defender.

As the defender, you want to know where the enemy is approaching in order to commit your reserves there. Just as crucial in defence is the role of a forward security element to defeat the enemy reconnaisance.

Poke his eyes out, and he can't hit you.

I'm writing some tactical articles as I learn from the masters, and maybe a few AAR's will get posted. We'll see.

You can always email me, let me know how it goes.

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joeski:

I never scout ahead.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I see you like surprises. Your scouts are your eyes. Keep in mind that information about the enemy's whereabouts and movements gives you a big advantage. You can exploit enemy weaknesses on the offensive and blunt your opponent's attacks when on the defensive. A reserve force can be used to react to a developing situation.

Being a scout is a risky occupation. Quite often they don't survive the game. But the information they provide is invaluable. I use sharpshooters. I hide them well forward when on the defense. I've seen advancing units walk right over the top of my hidden sharpshooters. When on the attack I use sharpshooters well in advance of my main force. Generally time is not a constraint so I let the sharpshooters move for several turns, scouting for safe avenues of advance. This is VERY risky. But even their demise provides valuable info.

------------------

It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Mr. Clark]

I usually keep my scouts just far enough ahead that they will spot or be spotted before the rest of my main force. About a "half turn" to a "turn" ahead. That way it only takes me a turn (minute) or less to bring forces to bear on the enemy once spotted. So far it seems to be working...

Now I just need to learn how to plant my Artillery more effectively! So far it seems they have to stand right out in the front lines to target anything... and by that time they are dead.

[Pham911]

Two key things about using split squads for scouts that I've found:

1)They're expendable once you designate them scouts(i.e. they'll have a short life span)

2)They shouldn't try to have a stand-up fight with the enemy unless you've got a good reason(diversions come to mind, as you can trick the enemy into commiting quite a bit of resources into elliminating them, as often the enemy won't know if they're scouts on the flank, forward scouts, or a forward screen for your main force, or a screen for your armor, or what.)

I just got a PBEM opponent to assault a scout platoon on my flank for 10 minutes or so while I solidified my iron grip on the town we're contesting. I lost the platoon, but it was well worth it.

[Guest Pillar]

I disagree strongly with some of the conceptions of scouting put forward here.

I prefer to have my scouts FAR ahead of the main body (reserves). The scouts job is to find the enemy, pin him if he can, breakthrough if he is weak, but most of the time just die.

In my opinion, and I feel quite strongly about this, having men only slightly ahead of the main body does *not* make them scouts -- only the first to die.

[Guy w/gun]

I don't know about anyone else, but i scout WELL ahead with sharpshooters when ever i can. They seem to be very stealthy and usually don't get caught until they start sniping. I like to sneak them near a road or an open space where infantry is going to march and have them hide. When the time is right, i have them open up on the infantry.

Using snipers like this also lets me spy on the enemy and get an idea of his numbers where he's concentarted (if anywhere).

I haven't tried with split squads yet. Im playing with the axis right now and ive heard that it isn't a good idea to split up German squads.

[Guest Rommel22]

hey joeski, I like you signature, i sa that episode of SNL. I laughed my ass off, what would be even funnier is if this worked or someone did it. I would try it.

------------------

"If you are a Republican under 30 you have no heart! If you are not a Republican and over 30, you have no brain!"

Winston Churchill

[Chupacabra]

My two scout pence:

In contrast with Pillar, I use scouts fairly close to my main body, and I use high-quality troops. Why? Because for me, scouts which range far ahead out of support and get cut up are absolutely useless. By the time you either bring force to bear against whatever killed your scouts OR maneuver your force to avoid whatever killed your scouts, your opponent can easily move his men as well, and you've just wasted a couple of squads for bad intelligence.

On the other hand, if you use good quality scouts, well-supported, you'll tie up your enemy long enough that A) if you've hit a weak spot in his lines, you can force a breakthrough or if the position is too strong to take, you can dump some arty on it and flank it with the body of your force.

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[joeski]

engy: This post is totally unrelated to our pbem game. I have scouts all over the place in that game. Now that I think about it I'm not who you think I am. yeah that's the ticket. I'm borrowing the real joeski's sign on and member status. To get you thinking about scouts. Smoke screen if you will.

------------------

"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey

[Guest Pillar]

Chuppy makes a good point.

Although I disagree with having your main body close to your scouts, the reserves must be highly mobile if you are going to exploit anything your scouts tell you.

Usually a Platoon in Half-tracks or on the back of 4 STUG's can accomplish this *very* nicely.

On the other hand, I find that if you keep your main body close to your scouts you sacricfice a ton of space to manuever and can find yourself pinned by the enemy.

[This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 11-01-2000).]

[PeterNZer]

gotta say it.. using snipers as scouts is a bit...

GAMEY?

PeterNZ

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

gotta say it.. using snipers as scouts is a bit...

GAMEY?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're not snipers, they're sharpshooters. Guys with guns. Guys with guns pull scout duty when asked. It's expensive, but it's not gamey. I sure wouldn't want my Vet or Crack sharpshooter out there scouting... but if the scenario dealt me a Reg and I didn't have another plan in mind, I might. Besides, sharpshooters "scout" on the defensive just by hanging out in a good vantage point.

[Samhain]

Try using the Taoist approach to scouting: don't a) worry that they'll get wasted (can't win if you're afraid to lose) or rush to reinforce defeat once they're spotted if you like to keep them close to your main force(s) and have that option. Instead, once the scouts run into resistance, flow where the enemy isn't. Of course with the fog of war, it can be hard to say whether your scouts have run head on into a world of hurt, or just a split-squad scout from the other side.

Some relevant thoughts from Sun Tzu:

When you are going to attack nearby, make it look as if you are going to go a long way; when you are going to attack far away, make it look as if you are just going a short distance.

Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion.

When they are fulfilled, be prepared against them; when they are strong avoid them.

------------------

Hope you got your things together,

Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR

[This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

gotta say it.. using snipers as scouts is a bit...

GAMEY?

PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phooey!! Don't get locked into the idea that units can only be used in a historical manner based on their title. Some players use their sharpshooters as point men. Some use them as scouts. I would venture to say that we have all used units in ways that are somewhat ahistorical. Even the actual commanders used units in ways they were not intended to be used. 'Gamey' is the use of units in a way that exploits a weakness in the game design. So if one uses sharpshooters and/or half-squads as scouts, it's not exploiting a game weakness. It's just using the unit differently than expected. That's called ingenuity.

------------------

It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[joeski]

I'm not sure how to make someone else's quote appear in my reply so bear with me if this looks horrid.

quote:

"By the time you either bring force to bear against whatever killed your scouts OR maneuver your force to avoid whatever killed your scouts, your opponent can easily move his men as well, and you've just wasted a couple of squads for bad intelligence."

Chupacabra:

I agree with this 100% and I'm still not sold on scouting just yet but might try it. Everyone seems to have some sort of scouting technique. Guess I need to figure out which is best for me.

Pillar:

You have some good points as well. But you wrote this which makes me ask some questions.

quote:

"I prefer to have my scouts FAR ahead of the main body (reserves). The scouts job is to find the enemy, pin him if he can, breakthrough if he is weak, but most of the time just die."

1. How many men do you use for scouts? Or how many (on average) squads do you split?

2. When you initially setup (depending on map size & terrain) do you have the main body of your force "hang back" until the "scouting report" is in?

3. What do you mean by reserves? Reinforcement?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to learn more tactics. Thanks to everyone who replied. Much appreciated.

P.S. Chup did you know if you run spell check on your username it comes up with Chewbacca? Sorry I thought it was funny.

------------------

"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey

[Croda]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar:

The scouts job is to find the enemy, pin him if he can, breakthrough if he is weak, but most of the time just die.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pillar, don't you feel the obligation as a commander to give your units the best chance of survival possible without losing your chance of securing your objective?

Throwing units out ahead expecting them to get cut down is not what I would consider a responsible way to use troops. While men will always die, it seems to me that coldly sending them forward to locate enemy strongpoints is a callous waste of lives and valuable (and limited) military resources.

It is for this reason that I prefer to have my main body far enough behind the scouts so that they have time to react and maneuver, but close enough so that they can support the advanced units, and smash resistence when found.

If your scouts are far ahead, what prevents your opponent from mowing down your advanced platoon, and then redeploying so that your arty strike falls on ground that is no longer held, or is being evacuated?

My preference is to keep the strike force close enough so that when the enemy is found, I am close behind in overwhelming numbers. This way, if he wants to call arty in on my advance, he's calling it quite close to himself; if he wants to reinforce, he is doing it too late; if the resistance is only an ambush or scouts, it is destroyed quickly, detracting from his overall force; and I am also able to support my advanced units and retain their use for later in the battle.

Starting a QB with 1 company of infantry and wasting 1/3 of it right off the bat is IMHO ridiculous, wasteful, and not in the spirit of the game.

------------------

"Nuts!"

[Sharpie]

Get them out on either/both flanks, try to judge the turn time and ensure they keep moving until 50 secs or so and finish under the best cover available. Above all remember that a solid recon could win the day, I know to my cost!!

[Tanaka]

Scouting !? Nonsense...

The enemy is there... yes right there, go, get him ! ahhhh Banzai, Banzai, BANZAI...

Nobody, no one can resist a good Banzai charge...

Just charge, anything will do, a King Tiger, a Jeep a Crew... No enemy leaves this map walking !

Now after this inspiration moment, go to your PBEM and act like you have them in the right place

PS-Kids, Don't try this at home !

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 11-02-2000).]

[gezeder]

while it does seem a bit cold to send troops to thier almost certain death, i think sometime's it's necessary to sacrifice the few for the good of the many, after all, what's better, a split squad running into an ambush, and All (4-6?) of them dying? or the entire platoon running into the ambush, a lot of them dying, taking a few enemy out with them, and essentiall bogging down the whole attack in that area?

on the other hand.... i sure am glad i'll never have to make real decisions like that! war is tough.... to be successful a certain degree of ruthlessness is needed...

(on the other hand, i'm not a big fan of the sharpshooter scout... c'mon, has he got a radio? going point yes, 500 metres ahead no... IMHO )

matt

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

Doesn't the use of scouts sort of depend on the size of the battle? I do a lot of smallish battles -- infantry company, plus a couple of tanks, plus a couple of vehicles, plus some support weapons -- say, 800-1000 points. This means the core of my force is about 10 squads, and every time I've used scouts, they've gotten cut up with the return of no useful information to me and the loss of 10% of my force. So I've sort of given up on scouts, too, at least on this level.

Now if I had two battalions on the field, losing a few squads here or there shouldn't matter much at all, and almost any information would be useful...but that hasn't been the case in the smaller battles I've done.

Although using scouts as more like point men might well be something worth trying...

[Brian Rock]

I try to scout, even in smallish battles.

I think gezeder has it right - better to lose a few guys finding out where the enemy is then to risk an entire platoon getting the same information.

I've learned this the hard way, rushing where I was sure the enemy wasn't, only to find out where they are. A well-positioned defender can decimate a careless attacker.

Look at if from the defender's point-of-view. Would you prefer:

a) for the enemy to find out where you are by sacrificing a half squad or two, or

b)blindly to move his main force into your kill zone?

[Smoker1]

The use of sharpshooters as scouts can very easily become a gamey tactic in some situations. Give me six sharpshooters in a 3,000 pt. armor battle with some trees and I'll know where every one of your tanks is by turn 10. Not only that, they will all have to stay buttoned for the rest of the game. This is only possible because of game limitations. Therefore it is gamey. How could I possibly know that a sharpshooter 300 meters from the nearest friendly and out of LOS has spotted a platoon of enemy armor?

Six sharpshooters cost about 150 points. Not a bad price to pay for the complete removal of FOW and a buttoned up enemy. Smoker out.