BTS, Are you considering doing a Pacific Front Theater with the CM engine?

[Mike Zeares]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

The battle included flamethrowing galore, 100ft deep bunkers (which weren't entered, just blown up), bonsai charges, starving out the enemy, etc. Oh boy, sounds really interesting I can hardly keep my eyes open

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Bonsai" charges? They were charging with little trees?

No wonder their casualties were so high.

-- Mike Zeares

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

The battle included flamethrowing galore, 100ft deep bunkers (which weren't entered, just blown up), bonsai charges...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You haven't experienced terror until you've faced an advancing wave of fanatical dwarf pines.

The term is 'banzai' (literally "ten thousand years", as in "may the Emperor live ten thousand years")

Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Darroch]

Originally posted by Major Tom:

Well, CM3 would have to have more than 1 BMP to represent faces. You have Caucasian, Indian, African, Japanese, Canadian...

Canadian face BMPs? Presumably with beady little eyes and flappy heads?

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darroch:

Originally posted by Major Tom:

Canadian face BMPs? Presumably with beady little eyes and flappy heads?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, they would be wearing Racoon hats - every Canadian has one, they hand them out at birth I know, my girl-friend is Canadian!

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Andreas

[Major Tom]

Not really, but, every Canadian is on the Beaver patrol though

The Pacific theatre would be interesting using the battles up to 1942. Malaya, Hong Kong, Philippines, Dutch East Indies, Burma, New Guinea and Guadalcanal. Each of these battles had more tactics over overwealming firepower. Casualties for both sides were fairly equal, however, the Allies would have a severe lacking in quality of troops. Steve is correct in stating that battles after 1942 will just be slogging matches, bloodier and shorter than that of a proposed Normandy Beach landing.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

Steve is correct in stating that battles after 1942 will just be slogging matches, bloodier and shorter than that of a proposed Normandy Beach landing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a book called 'Operation Iceberg' - it is an oral history of the battle for Okinawa. In it you get some fairly good descriptions of the fighting, and in most cases it seemed to revolve around taking strongpoints in extremely difficult terrain, suicidal attacks on US tanks by Japanese and Marines getting killed in "Geronimo" charges. It might be interesting if you have really well designed scenarios, but in most cases it probably isn't. The father of my landlord in Japan was there and taken POW. He said the most fearsome thing was when they had taken US POWs and the US would come after them with all they got, whilst knowing that their own commanders did not care one bit for them. Well, at least that's what I think he said, my Japanese was never that great.

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Andreas

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

There is a book called 'Operation Iceberg' - it is an oral history of the battle for Okinawa. In it you get some fairly good descriptions of the fighting, and in most cases it seemed to revolve around taking strongpoints in extremely difficult terrain, suicidal attacks on US tanks by Japanese and Marines getting killed in "Geronimo" charges.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The History Channel showed an episode of Tales of the Gun the other day that was devoted to Japanese infantry weapons. They were for the most part pretty primitive and/or poor quality. The Imperial Army had no anti-tank capability at all. According to the show, their standard anti-tank mine involved digging a pit, placing an armed aircraft bomb in it, and then putting a volunteer in the pit with a hammer to hit the impact fuse when a tank drove over the covered pit

What the Japanese accomplished in the PTO was in spite of pretty much everything except troop quality (in the early years) and generalship.

Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darroch:

Originally posted by Major Tom:

Well, CM3 would have to have more than 1 BMP to represent faces. You have Caucasian, Indian, African, Japanese, Canadian...

Canadian face BMPs? Presumably with beady little eyes and flappy heads?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget pale white skin that will blind you if you stare at it for too long. I know, my old neighbor was from Canada. Her skin was sickingly pale.

Apparently the Commonwealth has brain-washed poor Major Tom. He thinks that Canadians are something other than Caucasians! I got news for ya, Major Tom. Any "white" person IS Caucasian. Hell, I'm Italian-American, but I'm still Caucasian!

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"I want you to remember that...no bastard ever won a war...by dying for his country...He won it...by making the other poor dumb bastard...die for his country."--George S. Patton

[guachi]

Steve,

Did the show you watched happen to be 'History of the Gun' about Japanese weapons?

The episode was quite interesting considering how little Japanese weaponry (except for aircraft) gets covered. It was way cool to see live firing of the Japanese machine guns.

Jason

Good to be back on the board after a harddrive crash (grr!). Although I can't say I missed the discussion that led to all the closed threads....

[Major Tom]

Frankly, you are starting to give us Italian's a bad name (50% Italian + 50% Welsh = 1 Canadian). However, it is probably just your American side which cannot grasp the humour of the above statement

[Guest Big Time Software]

Man, NEVER trust a spell checker when the word isn't native to the language of your word processor. I know that Bansai is a freaking tree

As for making different BMPs for faces, we probably will. VRAM is already becoming much less of an issue for us, so for even CM2 we can play around with this.

Yes, it was Tales of the Gun. That is a great series. Heck, I like it just to see and hear Ian Hogg speak The ending summed up the Japanese Army pretty well. They were expected to do what had to be done though will power and loyalty. Er... BAD idea when the US made more MGs in one month than the Japanese made for the entire war!

Steve

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

Japanese infantry weapons. They were for the most part pretty primitive and/or poor quality. The Imperial Army had no anti-tank capability at all.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ethan,

have a look at the book. Apparently the GIs highly respected the Japanese 'knee mortars' (the poor man's artillery). I also heard something about a 37mm AT gun with high muzzle velocity capable of killing US armor, but can not remember where that was. The bomb mines could also be triggered by a tank driving over them, they did not need volunteers. Apparently the US lost a lot of men removing mine fields on Okinawa and the smaller islands surrounding it. One of the major problems the Japanese were facing was that they only had one steel plant capable of producing armor steel and that army and navy were busier fighting about who gets the production than fighting the US ('The origins of WWII in the Pacific' forgot the author)

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Andreas

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 02-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 02-13-2000).]

[Major Tom]

The Japanese 'Knee Mortor' was mistranslated. It should be known as a theigh mortor, as, when they were on the move the soldier would strap it onto their theigh. However, many American's assumed that they fired it braced on their leg, or knee, resulting in countless broken legs.

The Japanese also had a 47mm AT gun, copied from the Russian 45mm AT gun during one of their many skirmishes. The 47mm was able to punch holes in a Sherman if the range was right, and on a small Island, the range is always right. Tarawa was assaulted by the 2nd Marine division with 3 Shermans and a few Stuarts. 2 of the 3 Shermans were knocked out by friendly fire or Japanese AT guns, the Stuarts were virtually useless.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

The Japanese also had a 47mm AT gun, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duh! that was the one I was thinking about must have mistaken it for the Heeresanklopfgerät, the early war German 37mm AT gun. I remember seeing a picture of a knee mortar being fired somewhere (can't remember where). It looked like a tin can on a stick. The soldier was kneeling, he stick was rammed into the ground just ahead of the toes, and the whole thing angled away slightly, the soldier using one hand to hold on to the stick and the other to load.

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Andreas

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

Frankly, you are starting to give us Italian's a bad name (50% Italian + 50% Welsh = 1 Canadian). However, it is probably just your American side which cannot grasp the humour of the above statement <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really, I just know how Canadians are.

[Bullethead]

Steve-

Just for the record, US PTO casualties significantly INCREASED as the war went on and we got closer to Japan itself. Both in total numbers and in percent of forces engaged. This despite us getting better tanks, more flamethrowers, achieving total air and naval superiority, etc. The simple fact is, the Japanese got way better at defending islands as the war went on, especially once they realized they were on the strategic defensive and really started digging in. They had a few years to really work on some of the last islands we took.

I recommend reading a book called "Code-Name Downfall," by Thomas B. Allen and Norman Polmar. It does a good job itemizing US casualties in the latter part of the Pacific War, as well as describing Japanese defensive techniques.

Anyway, it was far from boring over there. Constrast taking Mt. Suribachi to taking a hectare of desert that looks just like all the other hectares.

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-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[Guest JonS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

Anyway, it was far from boring over there. Constrast taking Mt. Suribachi to taking a hectare of desert that looks just like all the other hectares.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or, contrast another assault on another static bunker line on another jungle clad ridge on another grotty little island with the wheeling free-for-all in "the Cauldron", or the desperate defence of the Kasserine Pass, or the night attack at Min-Qar-Qaim.

No contest really

Jon

(Also, Rommel quite liked the desert - so it must have had something going for it...)

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Ubique

[This message has been edited by JonS (edited 02-13-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh boy, sounds really interesting I can hardly keep my eyes open<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I just love watching paint dry, PTO for me please . For similar mind numbing tactical problems perhaps Steve and Charles would like to try 'CM on the Somme', yawn.

[Darren J Pierson]

I think PTO would be great. Of course, it would have to include the China-Burma-India theatre as well. Plus, you could always throw in the Soviets at the end of the war!

Besides, think of how satisfying it would be (from a gamer's/challenge point of view) if you led the Japanese to victory over the Marines.

Of course, when you put the Canadians in, you *must* model the RCMP unit(s) that were sent out. Just think of seeing a mounted cavalry charge with all of those dress serge uniforms! Just kidding, I know that the RCMP units didn't wear that, but just think what the POTD graphics would look like!!

Darren

[This message has been edited by Darren J Pierson (edited 02-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Darren J Pierson (edited 02-14-2000).]

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yup, even the Soviets had manpower problems<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Under Uncle Joe's benign leadership, who wouldn't have manpower problems

[Guest Big Time Software]

Bullethead, suicidal static defense and suicide charges are what cost the US more lives as the war went on, not better tactics, training, and leadership. In fact, so far as I know all of the latter became worse and worse as well as their weapons going downhill in terms of quality. Even Italian WWII small arms are worth more than Japanese ones

And cripes, if the US:Japanese casualties went UP to 1:15, I can only imagine the wonderfull battles before that

Honestly, I can't take your comments about the desert and the rest of the Med. Theater seriously. Okinawa more tactically interresting than Crete? Tarawa more tactically exciting than Kasserine? Paaaaaalese

I'm not saying that the PTO is boring from a narriative and/or historical standpoint, but it can't hold a candle to the battles in the ETO in terms of tactical, forces, and terrain matchups.

Sorry, but PTO excites far less than anything in the ETO, so if we ever go to the Pacific it will be after we have exhausted the ETO.

Steve

[Bullethead]

Steve said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Honestly, I can't take your comments about the desert and the rest of the Med. Theater seriously...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry you feel that way .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sorry, but PTO excites far less than anything in the ETO, so if we ever go to the Pacific it will be after we have exhausted the ETO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO this is a matter of personal taste. Of course, it's your taste that matters, being as how you get to decide on these things. And taste isn't something that's likely to change despite well-reasoned counterarguments as to the similarities of Italy to the PTO, or the lack of scope for combined arms actions in North Africa except for assaults on "static bunker lines."

All I can say is, if you announced a PTO/CBI CM for release 4 years from now, I'd pre-order tonight. But North Africa and Italy ain't on my "must have" list.

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-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[Guest Big Time Software]

Bullethead, every time I have tried to get into PTO land warfare I just have to put the book down and never pick it up again. So much so that I can't even remember the last time I tried to read anything about the PTO. It just seems like the only time the Japanese Army won anything was when they had superiority of numbers. Just watched a show on the Rape of Nanking (sp) and was once again impressed at how poor their army was even in 1937!

I guess I just see no reason to get excited about the prospect of 1942-45 PTO land warfare from a tactical standpoint of partial battlion sized combined arms forces.

Yes there is a LOT of interesting stuff that went on there, but militarily it is more small unit actions of attrition against a defender that really wasn't all that good when it comes down to it. Seems that once the US forces got off the beaches (which CM is unlikely to ever simulate) it was simply a matter of time before the island was secured. And this time was spent rooting out one bunker at a time.

Pardon my admitted ignorance about the details of PTO fighting, but tell me... how many major US led attacks on Japanese islands ended with anything but an overwhelming US victory? How many of the island battles involved fluid and dynamic engagements between forces that were at least somewhat equally matched up? My meager understanding is that while it was a tough go for the individual soldier, at CM level and higher it was pretty much a sure bet that the Japanese would lose in any open engagement much sooner than later and therefore fall back to bunkers to await being flamed/blown out.

Steve

[Wesy]

Barely keep your eyes open? Sure, I bet those guys invading the Tarawa Atoll could barely keep there eyes open To paraphrase a radio reply to the US Ships, "...Situation in doubt..."

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Ethan,

have a look at the book. Apparently the GIs highly respected the Japanese 'knee mortars' (the poor man's artillery). I also heard something about a 37mm AT gun with high muzzle velocity capable of killing US armor, but can not remember where that was. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andreas,

Yes, I'm sure they respected the knee mortar, but any half-decent RPG/grenade projector is going to command respect from the other side. Thinking back to my collection of WW2 books (still in boxes in my folks' house), I remember the Japanese AT gun as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The bomb mines could also be triggered by a tank driving over them, they did not need volunteers. Apparently the US lost a lot of men removing mine fields on Okinawa and the smaller islands surrounding it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just reporting what they said on the History Channel. The Imperial Army made extensive use of AP mines, as would any outnumbered and outgunned force that's assumed a basically static defense. I don't recall them having an AT mine, although I'm sure some of the bigger APs would have done for an M3. ISTR they did have some sort of shaped-charge on a stick for close range anti-armor. This was something only the Japanese could have developed, as it involved ramming a long broom handle against the side of the tank, resulting in the almost certain death of the user.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One of the major problems the Japanese were facing was that they only had one steel plant capable of producing armor steel and that army and navy were busier fighting about who gets the production than fighting the US ('The origins of WWII in the Pacific' forgot the author)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just one more reason why Japan's attack on the United States falls into anyone's top ten list for 20th Century History's What Were They Thinking?

Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 02-14-2000).]