An open letter to BTS...

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I consider the following kindof rude. I am holding BTS, the business, to a different standard. If it were coming from a gamer, it would be different. When people say 'the customer is always right,' he may not be but I think the point is to treat the customer very respectfully.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And the point of 90% of the posters on this thread is that HE WAS treated FAR more respectfully than he treated anyone else. I would also point out the FIRST post BTS made: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Er... could you at least bitch at us using full sentences, coherently organized thoughts, and something called paragraphs? That is a tough and rambling read there.

Take a couple of deep breaths, do a search on the multitude of discussions about AI, and then perhaps we can talk.

I also ask that anybody following up on this to go easy.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Golly, maybe Steve should have used a little smiley there huh? Would that have made it all better? Steve was quite correct that it WAS a tough read and didn't make a lot of sense. He then suggested that he calm down (since it was pretty clear he was fairly incensed) and do a search so that he could get a full background on the situation. THEN STEVE SAID "AND THEN PERHAPS WE CAN TALK." And to top it all off, Steve recognized that the initial post was inflammatory (I think the first clue might have been when Stransky titled it "CRAP AI, Other BUGS ,Fix Or implement IPX/TCP!!") and asked everyone to take it easy on Stransky.

Sorry guy, but that's not rude in my book, it MIGHT have been considered a bit informal but BTS is not (contrary to their name) exactly BIG TIME ... yet. But with the level of their customer service they will be. I'm not exactly sure what axe you are trying to grind here but Stransky was WAY off base and BTS handled it with far more restraint than many companies would have.

Joe

[Capt. Lortie]

Thanks for all the feedback

For your information, John carmack has never answered one of my question, simply because I never asked him one. But ID software has not been known for their excellency in the filed of Customer Service. On the other hand, Mr Broussard, has, on several occasions, e-mailed me and some of my friends PERSONALLY. Now I am sure Broussard had other things to do; he still did oit though. Therefore, I am not afraid to compare BTS to a big company like 3DRealms. I remember when Broussard came under fire on the board. He took the time to answer ALL criticsm one by one.

Can you just admit it wasn't done during Stransky's debate?

Thanks

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

a) agreeing with you, that BTS are in fact a bunch of rude loonies hell-bent on insulting their customers...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that BTS is a bunch of rude loonies...

I never said that or realistically implied that.

I just don't think it would hurt to just be a little more sensitive.

The only reason I'm complaining about this is 'cause I like this site and discussion group.

I don't think BTS sucks. I like CM. I was using that as an example.

[Capt. Lortie]

`Sorry for the mistakes; it should have been like this:Thanks for all the feedback

For your information, John carmack has never answered one of my question, simply because I never asked him one. But ID software has not been known for their excellency in the field of Customer Service. On the other hand, Mr Broussard has, on several occasions, e-mailed me and some of my friends PERSONALLY. Now I am sure Broussard had other things to do; he still did it though. Therefore, I am not afraid to compare BTS to a big company like 3DRealms. I remember when Broussard came under fire on the board. He took the time to answer ALL criticsm one by one.

Can you just admit it wasn't done during Stransky's debate?

Thanks

[infohawk]

[b/] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Er... could you at least bitch at us using full sentences, coherently organized thoughts, and something called paragraphs?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just don't understand why it would be hard for BTS to rephrase that in a bit nicer way, even if he was right. I remember not being able to read the post he is referring to.

It is a detail, but such an easy one to fix!

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

A bouncer and Computer game develepor are two different things. Bouncers are an exception in business in that they normally aren't all that polite or don't need to be(and for good reason probably).

People that sell things shouldn't compare themselves with bouncers. Bouncers try to keep people out of a business. BTS shouldn't be keeping anybody out of the symbolic club(I'm not sayint they ARE keeping people out)....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>\

Sorry Infohawk, you are wrong on this point.

A bouncer’s biggest asset is the ability to be polite in the face of overwhelming rudeness and stupidity. I managed the security (bouncers) for almost 10 years for a club that would receive up to 10,000 customers on a solid Friday or Saturday. I had a crew of 12. If any of my people EVER showed signs of “not having to be nice” it was viewed as negligence and they were immediately replaced. Being a bouncer does not give anyone the legal right to put his or her hands upon anyone.

Using politeness and intelligence you move people in the direction they need to go. Try developing software or customer service in almost ANY field. Using telephone or Internet (most do, especially the computer service field). Using politeness and intelligence you move people and/or their ideas the way you need them to go.

BTS and the CM following has demonstrated the same on this BBS. One other small point I would like to add, nice of BTS to supply this forum for us.

[infohawk]

By the way, the comment of grognards wasn't to be taken too seriously (but it was rude and I take it back). I consider myself a very liteweight grognard. I don't know anybody else (in real life) that plays wargames.

Remember the V for Victory series. I really liked that game (the Velilye Luki one was especially cool). That's probably a liteweight game though huh?

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Sorry Infohawk, you are wrong on this point.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding bouncers and computer game makers:

I agree with you, you and madmatt (who also explained to me the similarities [or my misunderstanding of bouncers]) have now educated me on this point.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

I don't think that BTS is a bunch of rude loonies...

I never said that or realistically implied that.

I just don't think it would hurt to just be a little more sensitive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well funny this one caught your eye, obviously I had to get a bit more forceful to get recognised, eh? What you are doing is generally called 'trolling', and it can not be ignored because the original post by Capt. Lortie was ill-informed, ill-judged and unwarranted.

Capt. Lortie, now I just had a look at your other thread about the cheating AI. Basically what you do there (on flimsy evidence) is to accuse Charles of cutting corners and shafting us gamers by lying to us for months. And yet, the Incredibly Rude Steve™ is treating you with respect, spends time on addressing your concerns and explaining why you are wrong. Funny that, isn't it? Maybe connected to the fact that you are putting your complaint forth in a respectful and coherent manner, who knows. I think if somebody has something to acknowledge here (being wrong, namely) it is you, and Infohawk, and nobody else.

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Andreas

[Guest Madmatt]

Ok and I ask again, show me one other example of where BTS was unrefutably rude?

It's a matter of perspective. What is or is not rude to you has already been proven to not be so to others. Which side is right?

There seems to be two camps here.

One side just asks for BTS to be more considerate when answering questions. Nothing wrong with that at all.

The other side continues to stress that BTS has on numerous occasions literaly bent over backwards for customers and have already set new levels for customer service.

But to be honest, neither side really matters as BTS will continue to do business as they see fit and to the very best of their abilities.

After having been on this Forum for nearly a year I feel that the very concept of BTS being rude to paying customers almost laughable. BUT I have tried to see this issue from your perspective and engaged in a flame free discussion. In the end it's just matter of opinion.

If you really feel that BTS isn't doing enough then exercise your right to NOT purchase another BTS product.

One interesting thought just occured to me. We have now digressed to the point where we must argue over the TYPE of support given to the game instead of the actual game.

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[infohawk]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

What you are doing is generally called 'trolling', and it can not be ignored because the original post by Capt. Lortie was ill-informed, ill-judged and unwarranted.

Can someone explain to me what trolling is?

I don't see how the original post by Lortie demands a response (if you are not interested or think it's a stupid statement).

By the way, I don't support or not support Capt. Lortie in any point except the one he made in his op refering to niceness/politeless/thin-skinned people's interest or whatever you want to call it.

[Guest Madmatt]

Not to dovert this thread but it seems like infohawk may have been genuinely unaware of what being a Bouncer was all about. Here are two threads from the past that go into some more details about what it was like.

Hey Abbot! Which venue did you manage?

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002294.html

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/007802.html

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[pzvg]

Since some folks hold that all business concerns are alike, Ie; no difference between ford and Jag, Do you feel in the name of "customer rights" (and I'd like to see the legal definition of that one) that you should have the right to go to Hardees and demand a steak dinner? no, It's called being silly.

No body, anywhere, at anytime, should have to kiss your ass for a measely 45 bucks.

And as far as "everybody here always jumps down the throat of anyone with a negative opinion" hmm, I think a quick search of these boards will show that many of these flamewars are started by people who really don't want any positive feedback, they're in it simply for the ego-rise of starting a flame. (Btw why did you post an open letter?)

See, you could go about getting answers, and you would get them, IF you were really interested in answers.

I have no problems with BTS's behavior, but then again, I'm a 5 year veteran of the boardwars over at AGW, and I must say you guys have a long ways to go before you make it to "experten" levels

To close, and your point is?

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Pzvg

"Murphy's law of combat #10, never forget your weapon is made by the lowest bidder

[Guest Big Time Software]

Shesh... I never knew I was such a jerk until I read this thread OK, time for me to apologize for my behavior...

1. There are thousands of messages posted here every couple of days. I try to read as much of them as possible. I apologize I can not answer each and every post. My fault.

2. Sometimes people are very rude to us, without any justification or previous posting experience, and I am a bit short with the individual. I am sorry. I know I should instead kiss that person's butt so that they can abuse us in the future since I obviously will not stand up to insolence and childish behavior. So in future I will try very hard to do better controlling my out of control anger (as evidenced in my first response to Stransky, or the tearse respond to the Captain after the accusation that we are lying to our customers) and instead pucker up and tell the customer exactly what it is he wants to hear. That will make the world a happier place for all mankind.

3. OK, I admit it. Combat Mission was "rushed out the door". The evidence is clearly laid out for all to see. 5 patches, containing customer suggestions for the most part, really should have been done before the game was released. In fact, we really should have kept the game behind locked doors for another 10 years to make sure we got ever mm of every tank correct BEFORE shipping. The fact that we delayed the launch of CM for almost 8 months, with no other income coming in, simply wasn't good enough. On behalf of BTS I hang my head in shame. I also am at a loss as to explain all the 5/5 and 10/10 reviews we have received. Do reviewers not care about quality?!?

4. When customers come to us, demanding answers (especially if they are rude) to discussions that have chewed up HOURS of our time answering in the past, I will no longer point them in the right direction. Instead, I will reenter the same debate, spend just as much time as I did the first 6 times answering the same question, and go on from there. I know this will cut into our development time, but if it saves the customer 2 minutes of time using the Search function on this 100,000 post message board, it is time well spent. Especially if the customer is rude, because rudeness should get extra attention.

5. When someone demands, again... especially if rudely, for us to do something we will tell that customer we are "hopping right on it!". It doesn't matter if the customer hasn't a clue about what it is their computers can do or that the lack of game design experience might mean they don't know what will work from a game standpoint. The customer is always right. And of course, I should not only be telling the customer what he wants to hear, but doing so even if I have already answered the question a dozen times before in great detail. See #4 above.

6. It appears that our policies for closing up threads is really out of line. We only use three reasons for closing up threads right now, and it is apparent that our logic is flawed. They are:

a. if the thread was started as a troll to spark up a flamefest.

b. the thread started out OK, but turned into a flamefest and there is no sign of it getting better.

c. is wildly off topic, or is covering a topic that is likely to degenerate into a flamefest (based on previous experience).

It is apparent now that we should leave open all threads, all the time, even if there is going to be nothing positive contributed from now until doom's day. It works for USENET, so it should work just fine here.

7. In the end, we obviously don't listen to our customers. The hundreds, and I mean hundreds, of user suggested features and tweaks were really all fictitious. Yes... the cat is out of the bag. If you could see the IP numbers on all the valuable posts made by "the average gamer" you would see that it is in fact our IP number. We simply pretended to listen to thousands of gamers over the last year and a half so we could pretend to be concerned about what the gamer wants. But the lid has been blown off it now, so I guess we just need to admit that not one user suggestion has ever made it into CM.

And finally...

I apologize for this post. After working pretty much every hour of my waking life making and supporting Combat Mission, I guess I am just not good enough for you all. I'm sorry that I am human and don't like being treated like a pile of **** after all this work, but I guess we all have our flaws. Expected to be treated with some respect for what we have produced is just my little flaw. The $45 purchase price does in fact grant the user the right to abuse us without cause, whine like a 10 year old kicked in the teeth, and attack our credibility without anything more than a wrapped view of what customer support should be.

Hope this puts me back in the good graces of the 2 or 3 people complaining out of the thousands registered to use this BBS. Because, as you know, if one person complains there must be a really huge problem.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pzvg:

Btw why did you post an open letter

I think your confusing infohawk and the original poster. You seem to be responding to infohawk, but then you say 'you' referring to the person who started the post.

To close, and your point is?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is that it woudn't be hard for Big Time Software to accomodate the 10% of the people that think they could be more polite.

You seem not to know what's happening in this thread. Madmatt summed it up pretty good a couple posts ago: it's a matter of opionion. One opinion seems to have more supporters though.

[infohawk]

Whoah, you're being way too negative (IMO).

You guys do a great job and I don't think the product was released too early. I love CM. I never noticed a bug.

IMO, I don't think you should respond to everyone , but if you do, arse-kissing will prevent offending anyone, even though most people aren't botherd by it.

I think it's a good idea to keep threads open (if you were being serious). My reasons are given in a general forum on this site. If people don't like the topic, they can skip it.

When people criticize CM, don't take it personally! But you probably don't need to hear that from me. And I can't tell if you're being sarcastic on all points.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

I think Steve just said pretty much everything that needed to be said, but I'll throw this out:

infohawk, Lortie, think of this: I come up to you and ask you a question. You answer it. A little while later, my friend, who overheard that first conversation, comes back and asks you the same question. You answer it. After that, I come back and tell you that, in fact, you're wrong. So does my friend. You explain to both of us why, in fact, you are right. We get mad, and start yelling at you. After we yell at you for a while, we go away. In another minute or two, a stranger who overheard this whole thing comes over and asks you the question that started the argument in the first place. Now, are you going to tell me that you're going to be meek and subservient to this guy? If so, go collect your degree in Advanced Footstool.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[The CM Borg]

"Infohawk" is rejected as irrelevant

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Resistance is Futile

[jdmorse]

Say it ain't so, Steve

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"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

-- King Henry VI, Part II, Act 4, sc.2, l.86

[weasel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Expected to be treated with some respect for what we have produced is just my little flaw. The $45 purchase price does in fact grant the user the right to abuse us without cause, whine like a 10 year old kicked in the teeth, and attack our credibility without anything more than a wrapped view of what customer <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! Two typos in the same paragraph ("expected" and "wrapped")!

Clear evidence of the low standards at BTS

(damn, I hope those smilies work, never having used 'em before...)

[This message has been edited by weasel (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Now, are you going to tell me that you're going to be meek and subservient to this guy?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but your comparison is faulty. Nobody is coming to the same person and asking the same question. Like I said above, I don't think the moderators should intervene on every subject.

I never expected a response from BTS, I was just expecting a response from fellow gamers.

Forums are different in that I don't think it's wrong to bring up the same topics over again. If people don't want to hear it, they can skip the topic.

Of course, in person to person contact, you would get annoyed with the same question (even though those telemarketers deal with it), but here you can discriminate and make a decision wether to listen or not. Just don't make that decision for everyone else.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Joe Shaw]

Weasel you weasel, click on the Smilies Legend link to the left of the message you want to send and it will show you how to post smilies properly. After all, if you're going to go the trouble of annoying Peng, learn to do it properly

Joe

[aka_tom_w]

I have REALLY tried to stay away from this one.

But I would like to add,,,,

Is there not some rule of business or some theorum that people are taught in Business school that 10% of the people, the loud screaming complainers, create 90% of the problems or require 90% of your customer support resources?

At BTS there are ONLY two guys, Steve and Charles, and they (as far as I can tell ) do EVERYTHING, so if the 10% of you whinners out there would get off there backs they would not have to waste 90% of their customer support efforts for lost causes!

Rant off.

-tom w

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Shesh... I never knew I was such a jerk until I read this thread OK, time for me to apologize for my behavior...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! Into the dirt and be damned! May Prof. Hamster X™ have your soul and not have any mercy on it. And TC Schultz will use your Weasel for target practice. Buhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!™

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Infohawk: One opinion seems to have more supporters though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And now let me administer the coup de grace. Your opinion and Capt. Lortie's to boot is pretty much worthless because it is not based on the loosest connection to reality, on any comprehensible way of arriving at it, or at least on respect for other people's work or self-worth, and it is therefore just plain wrong.

Unfortunately I am not in the fashionable business of relativism.

Steve has really said it all, I am out of here.

Is it possible that the full moon is coming? The board seems a bit strange these days...

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Andreas

[Los]

Damn Steve the only thing missing was the "KuhSLAM!" at the end of your post. Unfortunately, for that most minutest of fraction of posters that are making this most redundant of redundant discussions necessary, there's probably nothing you can say that would sink in. So we might as well relax and enjoy the display of profound cluelessness while it lasts.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-31-2000).]