jgdpzr Posted August 11, 2000 Share Posted August 11, 2000 I've been debating opening a discussion about a particular tactic that most will view as being extremely gamey. In fact, when used with one particular unit, it is IMO the ultimate (not penultimate) gamey tactic. I am talking about what I call "walking" spotting rounds. What I mean is this: we all are aware of spotting rounds being fired before the fire-for-effect missions come down. The problem is, these rounds can be used to some considerable effect. On one hand, I have thought about issuing fire orders in order to bring down a spotting round for the primary purpose of deception- to fool my opponent into thinking that a full-scale barrage is about to come down. The gamey ramifications of spotting rounds really come into play when you manipulate the fire missions so as to radically extend the number of rounds you can fire. Of course, the implications of this type of usage are probably only major when you are talking about the really large bore guns, where individual spotting rounds are devastating in-and-of-themselves. For example, last night I fired up a QB in June '44 because I wanted to blow some stuff up with the fourteen-inchers. That is when I realized that I could just walk the fire missions all around the map, bringing down regular spotting rounds all over the place. Needless to say, over the course of 25 turns or so I completely leveled a town, and wiped out the better part of a battalion of Germans while holding onto my entire compliment of three fire missions. Now if someone can identify a more hardcore example of gamey tactics, I'd be scared to see it. Anyway, the major reason why I bring this up, is I have often toyed with the idea of calling in fire missions simply for deceptive purposes. My question is: Does anyone know if this was ever a legitimate tactic during the war? The problem I have is that even if you could argue for the legitimacy of using spotting rounds for deception, how can you separate this from using spotting rounds to simply extend the number of rounds fired and, therefore, to actually inflict casualties? Don't worry, I have no intentions of using spotting rounds like this in pbem, because I think that, deceptive purposes aside, it is a gamey tactic. And perhaps it really is only an issue with the really big guns. But I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks. OK, I edited this and took out the troubled reference to penultimate. I always thought penultimate meant the last in any kind of series, but Jeves just told me it is the next-to-last. Don't want that. Now, I feel better. Just learned something. [This message has been edited by jgdpzr (edited 08-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted August 11, 2000 Share Posted August 11, 2000 Wow, I hope my PBEM opponent doesn't read this before he plots his next move. Havermeyer, if that arty doesn't start falling where that spotting round landed I'll taunt you a 2nd time . Anyway, the solution, other than agreeing not to do it because I agree that is the penultimate gamey tactic, is for BTS to code a spotting round as part of one firing round. That is, you must go through with your barrage or risk losing one of your ammo points whenever a spotting round lands. JMO ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 I take the point but consider this. If you've got a green FO, time to FFE can be several minutes - 6 minutes is the most I've seen. What I do in my nasty gamey little way is set a target for a fire mission early in the game. Then when the arty is due to strike, adjust the target point. New time to FFE is 1 minute - repeat as required. That way you stay 1 minute away from FFE rather than 6 or whatever. Do you think I should not do this ? Now 14" is a different story because of the damage a spotting round can do. However, I can't think of how such a tactic could be hardcoded out as you would then lose the ability to adjust fire. Eeh it's a dilemma Gromit! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted August 12, 2000 Author Share Posted August 12, 2000 Joe & Jeff, Thanks for the responses. And Joe, I have no problem with managing fire missions the way you do. I sometimes do the same thing. I suppose this would really only be a big issue if someone was clearly using the big guns in this way. And in such a case, I'd just tell my opponent that it's gamey and I'd rather not play him if he wanted to continue doing it. No big whoop. I think I'd probably regret tinkering with it to the extent of combining the spotting round with the first fire mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Babra wonders what everyone thinks "penultimate" means... Isn't there a heck of a long delay between each spotting round? ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neutral Party: However, I can't think of how such a tactic could be hardcoded out as you would then lose the ability to adjust fire. Eeh it's a dilemma Gromit! Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Joe, or anybody else for that matter, for whose purpose is that spotting round? I mean, you the human behind the keyboard set the target point. Your FO is the one who calls it in to the boys in the rear. It's the FO's responsibility to adjust the fire to hit the target once the target's been selected, is it not? So the fact that you don't like what you targeted is different than the fact that the FO doesn't like where it landed. The spotting round is for him, not for you the human behind the keyboard. If however, you need to change the target, that's understandable too. So long as no spotting round has landed you should be able to move it without using up an ammo point. Otherwise, move it and lose it. I think it gamey and the spotting rounds should be included in the first barrage. If a human does that with me (drop spotting rounds all day long), I would never play that human again. I wouldn't hold a grudge or get my panties in a wad though, I just wouldn't play him again. JMO. edited for Babra: Jeff is getting angry (think Seinfield and George Costanza here ). ------------------ Jeff Abbott [This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 08-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted August 12, 2000 Author Share Posted August 12, 2000 "Serenity now! Serenity now!" That was for you Jeff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 **** -- beat me to it. LOL ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neutral Party: That way you stay 1 minute away from FFE rather than 6 or whatever. Do you think I should not do this ? Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I asked this same question some time ago - in my mind it represents the FO keeping his battery on high alert: the battery has already lined-up their tubes, and now they just wait for the FFE order. The answer I got was 'ok'. With 81mm, there's no harm. With 150+, the spotting rounds do a _lot_ of damage, so I wouldn't do it with the big guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 I guess someone needs to explain to me why this would be considered gamey. How would it be different from an FO saying, "Ok guys fire a single round at a time, no barrages. I want to save ammo but I want them to start worrying about artillery and I want to deny an area to them without wasting a whole barrage." I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just really don't see how this is a problem. Is it because artillery NEVER did it that way, firing single rounds? And frankly the "spotting" round isn't for spotting purposes, it's there to add to the flavor of the game. So why couldn't we use it to simulate single rounds? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Joe, I don't think anyone is questioning calling in a single round, all over the place. The question comes up beccause in CM you are given a fixed mumber of rounds, By doing this is use up none of your ammo. Unless CM kept track of your spotting rounds and subtracted one ammo every 4 or so spotting rounds (which I think is a dumb idea). I don't see any way around it. Lorak ------------------ "someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati * http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 I don't get it: there seems to be a majority of people here who think "If it didn't happen in WW2, it's gamey and shouldn't be allowed"; now I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure that almost EVERYTHING that could happen DID happen in WW2 I'm no artillery vet(some here are, I guess), but I would be surprised if it never happened that some people called in artillery in order to interdict certain areas; I remember reading (but I forgot where) about cases where artillery barrages were fired in order to deceive the enemy into thinking that an attack was imminent at a point. Some seem to forget that a major component of war is deception -and doing the unexpected or the unorthodox; when the Allies planted forged plans for D-day on a dead sailor, and sent an actor posing as Montgomery to Africa, was that "gamey"? You bet! When they created a fake army for Patton in England so that the Germans would expect the invasion at Pas de Calais, was that gamey? You bet! Did the Germans cry foul? You bet. If this trend continues, players will have to announce their plans three moves in advance to their opponents, only attacks no closer than 500 m from the map edges will be allowed, and artillery will only be allowed to fall whee there are no enemy units! C'mon guys, this is war! This reminds me of the scene in the movie "My name is Nobody" where Terrence Young is going to fight a brute twice his size. "Just a minute", he sez, "we have to discuss the rules"! "What rules?", sez the brute, putting down his guard. Terrence kicks him in the balls and levels him with an uppercut, after which he sez, "There aren't any rules!" Now THAT is war! Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 It's not the deception that's gamey -- it's getting 22 shots of 14 inch out of a 6 shot battery. ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neutral Party: I take the point but consider this. If you've got a green FO, time to FFE can be several minutes - 6 minutes is the most I've seen. What I do in my nasty gamey little way is set a target for a fire mission early in the game. Then when the arty is due to strike, adjust the target point. New time to FFE is 1 minute - repeat as required. That way you stay 1 minute away from FFE rather than 6 or whatever. Do you think I should not do this ? Now 14" is a different story because of the damage a spotting round can do. However, I can't think of how such a tactic could be hardcoded out as you would then lose the ability to adjust fire. Eeh it's a dilemma Gromit! Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would'nt consider this gamey. In fact I believe this is the way you use artillery in the most efficient way. I have used artillery to suppress infantry that was about to attack me, this is what it is for. However, I only allow 3 or 4 rounds to fall and then either cancel the mission or move the target position. Using one spotting round at a time with heavy artillery is out of line, but can you time it and control it that carefully? ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnesota Joe Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 What to do about it? How about not advertising an effective lame-ass bug that little bastard cheaters can exploit and ruin a PBEM game? I've been playing for aver two weeks now and had no clue that this existed. I'm sure even most who have had the game since the first shipment went out didn't know about it either. You could have just labeled it vaguely as "that arty spotter cheat" that way nobody but the few people who allready know about it would understand. Maybe I'm just paranoid that some idiot will use it against me, at which point a perfectly good PBEM will be corrupted and I will no longer want to have any part in it. Sorry if you took any offence. ------------------ Ah scheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 so, what's the ultimate gamey tactic? the one after or before the penultimate one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Ten cool points for Mr. Peng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis: Joe, or anybody else for that matter, for whose purpose is that spotting round? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey Jeff. The point I was trying to make is that the spotting round itself is irrelevant - unless it's something ridiculous like 14". It's rather the reduced time to FFE that is the advantage of the approach I described, especially for a long primary targeting delay. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So long as no spotting round has landed you should be able to move it without using up an ammo point. Otherwise, move it and lose it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But isn't this just a matter of timing over which the player has no control. If a spotting round lands 45 seconds into the turn, is that so different from one that would have landed say 75 seconds later but doesn't because the targeting point gets shifted ? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think it gamey and the spotting rounds should be included in the first barrage. If a human does that with me (drop spotting rounds all day long), I would never play that human again. I wouldn't hold a grudge or get my panties in a wad though, I just wouldn't play him again. JMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's your right of course, but unless it's really heavy arty the spotting rounds are unlikely to have any significant effect by themselves. The effect they may have on the mind of an opponent may be more substantial. Joe (still master of his domain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 I first discovered this feature in the Gold Demo the first time I played it. It was CE, to see the difference, and I was playing the Germans. The AI Amis were crossing the wheatfield headed for the house on the right, when my first spotting round fell. They Ami's started high-tailing it back toward the main road and then the turn ended. "Kewl," I said to myself. The spotting round stopped that assault. Why waste the barrage when I can retarget somewhere else. A short time later it struck me that one could also try to use spotting rounds for extra bang without the charge to your arty account, but it depends a bit on lucky timing, and with small arty it's not all that effective anyway because the the lack of accuracy and small blast radius. It's more useful against a live human opponent, who always has to be guessing when the real barrage is going to fall and where, because I don't think the AI is sophisticated enough to worry about that. I'm not sure it's gamey, though, and it's probably only a real problem with 8" and larger arty. Even 150 doesn't seem to be ueberarty unless it hits pretty close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 First Clash At Cambes Spoiler!!!!!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . OK well speaking of 8" arty, that is some goddam mother beautiful stuff. i am in the process of having my guts handed to me (by berli) wrapped in a chinchilla stole (courtesy of Lorak) in FCC when this goddam 8" stuff starts coming in on the bastard HUN Gotz von Berlichtingendshihshister from my little FO fella. THREE SQUADS DIE INSTANTLY. swear to god. I don't know if the poor schmucks were already a bit low, but i watched the movie a few times and selected the units that seemed to be having a bit of a time with the incoming shells....OHHHHH YESSSS!!!! live sqaud....BOOOM!....dead squad...three shells three completely dead squads....I think I will stay not tooo far from the beaches eh? Peng ------------------ A Journey of a thousand miles starts with a single gunshot wound to the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Okay, that makes more sense. If you can get a single round "for free" it's something of a problem. I don't know that it's a big deal unless, as someone pointed out, it's an 8" round or so. Thanks. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Maybe a way round would be make it that if some arty is called for, you are commited to a cetain minimum duration of barrage. This would simulate the delay in getting the FO to get a cease fire and shift target message through. Don't know - just thinking aloud. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrPeng: so, what's the ultimate gamey tactic? the one after or before the penultimate one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's the adjusted round that lands AFTER the initial spotting round of course! Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted August 12, 2000 Author Share Posted August 12, 2000 Well, I see my little quandry has spurred some discussion, which is what I hoped. Sorry, Minnesota Joe, if you have a problem with me "advertising" a potential gamey tactic. No offense taken, but I am of the opinion that knowledge is power. I think it is better to acknowledge a game feature that can be misused, rather than to sit on that knowledge. But, your point is why I have been debating broaching this subject. I figured the topic heading was sufficient to warn people who may not want to acquaint themselves with a potential cheat. Others have alluded to the crux of my dilemma. Henri, you do an excellent job of summarizing something that has struck me as well: that it is easy to take the avoidance of "gamey" tactics to an extreme. This is a wonderful case-in-point. Using spotting rounds for deception, in my mind, probably has some realistic application and value. Particularly when you are playing a cagey human. However, complications ensue when you do this with the big guns, because, like-it-or-not, you get more bang for the buck when you do this. Extending the number of rounds you can bring down on the enemy by doing this is as gamey as you can get, in my mind. Sounds like there is probably a consensus that using the occasional spotting round for deception may be tolerable. Prolonging your cache of fire missions is not. I agree. And Peng, if you give me any more of a hard time with my using the word 'penultimate' I shall unleash such a stream of smileys, winkies, and other assorted net malcontents that you'll long for the days of the "Have a Nice Day" buttons.(Winkie respectfully ommitted, as a shot across the bow is always first order) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Personally, I like to play combined arms meeting engagement, with about 1250 points available to each player. This negates that kind of crap usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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