German Tank Destroyers in CM 2

[Guest Little_Black_Devil]

I recently bought a book called "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII" written by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle. It contains a wealth of information about German Tanks, Tank Destroyers, Half-Tracks, Armored Cars and other captured vehicles pressed into German service. Everything from production dates, armament, armor slope and thickness to histories and combat service. Anyhow, after having gone through it I got to thinking that it would be nice to see some of the more rare vehicles/variants within CM 2. Perhaps what I'm already discussing here is moot, but perhaps not.

In this post, I'll attempt to cover most of the predominant Tank Destroyers and variants (not self-propelled artillery,tanks, armored cars or HTs) which served on the Eastern Front and advocate their use in CM 2. Many of them probably don't require being pointed out, particularly the ones which are already included within CM. I'm sure BTS can do their own research just fine, however since they welcome suggestions I see this as our opportunity as gamers to have what we want in CM2.

What I'm looking for is some indication as to whether or not others would like to see "more" units being available, particularly the variants. I'm trying to limit this to just Tank Destroyers for now to make the thread manageable/comprehensive. There are also a few TDs/variants which I'm not entirely sure saw service on the Eastern Front - so perhaps someone will know.

I personally have scratched my head a few times trying to figure out the criteria for deciding on the inclusion of a vehicle or variant. I mean, including the Mk IV H makes sense, as so many were produced and available. However, from my information (i.e. - the above mentioned book) only 20 Hetzers were converted to Flame variants in Dec.1944 yet the flame variant is included in CM.

Personally, I think that larger numbers would earn a vehicle or variant a place within CM 2 - so long as it historically served on the pertinent front. Is this the only criteria for measuring inclusion though?

Anyhow, heres the list of Tank Destroyers I'm refering to. I'll give the page numbers for those who also have this book to follow with, as well as the production numbers/dates to give others an idea of how many were available overall - and served or possibly served on the Eastern Front.

Mark I Chassis;

P.25 - Panzerjager 4.7cm PaK(t)

202 Converted from Mar.1940-Feb.41

Mark II Chassis;

P.38 - Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf D1 and D2 LaS 762

201 Converted (both variants) from Apr.42-June 43

P.38 - Marder II

576 Produced from June42-June 43

Panzerkampfwagen 35(t) & 38(t) Chassis;

P.46 - Panzerjager 38(t) Marder III, VII, VIII

344 Produced from Apr.-Oct.1942

19 Converted in 1943

P.53 - Hetzer

2,584 Produced from Apr.44-May 45

Mk III Chassis;

P.79 - StuG III (Ausf A)

Only served in France 1940.

P.80 - (Ausf

320 Produced from June40-May41

P.80 - (Ausf C/D)

50 C's Produced and

150 D's Produced from May-Sept. 1941

P.81 - (Ausf E)

272 Produced from Sept.41-Mar.42

P.82 - (Ausf F)

359 Produced from Mar.-Sept. 1942

P.83 - (Ausf F/8)

334 Produced from Sept.-Dec. 1942

P.84 - (Ausf G)

7,720 Produced from Dec.42-Mar.45

173 Converted in 1944

Mk IV Chassis;

P.102 - StuG IV

1,108 Produced from Dec.42-Mar.45

31 Converted in 1943

P.102 - Jagdpanzer IV

769 Produced from Jan.-Nov. 1944

P.104 - Jagdpanzer IV/70(v)

930 Produced from Aug.44-Mar.45

I'm not sure if this particular variant saw action in Russia or not, most likely did but I haven't been able to confirm it.

P.105 - Jagdpanzer IV/70(a)

278 Produced from Aug.44-Mar.45

P.107 - Nashorn

494 Produced from Feb.43-Mar.45

Mk V Chassis;

P.128 - Jagdpanther

392 Produced from Jan.44-Mar.45

Again, I'm not sure if this one ever saw action on the Eastern Front. I do know they they served with the 559th and 654th Panzerjagerabteilungen if that helps anyone.

Mk VI Chassis;

P.140 - Ferdinand/Elefant

90 Produced from Apr.-May 1943

P.144 - Jagdtiger

Never saw action on the Eastern Front as best I can tell.

Lorry Chassis;

P.156 - 7.5cm PaK 40/4 auf Raupenschlepper

60 Converted from tracked lorries in Oct.43

They served with Army Group South. Enough numbers for inclusion?

Anyhow, thats it for German Tank Destroyers. I guess a similar overall question could be asked about German tanks, HTs, armored cars, all of their pertinent variants as well as all Russian and other Axis sattelite equipment/vehicles, but right now I'm trying to focus on German Tank Destroyers.

Comments?

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Hosti Acie Nominati

Combat Mission Canadian Headquarters

[Guest KwazyDog]

I have the same book sitting and few feet away and yup, I am certainally hoping to get a much wider selection of vehicles available for players in CM2

This is going to be a huge undertaking for us, as you can imagine. We havnt yet discussed this in any major detail, but I think we all want to see many more vehcile available in CM2, on both side of the front, time permitting. I have reference materail for over 50 Russian vehcile thus far too

Oh, and one thing that really ups the stakes for us is the fact that the Germans swapped from their standard grey colour scheme to other colours about half war through the war on the eastern front. This means twice the textures for many vehicles. Thankfully the Russians seem quite happy with their drab green, and did change to other schemes too often.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 11-30-2000).]

[Mace]

Early Stugs were quite similar in appearance and as far as 3D modelling in CM2 goes, you could get away with just a generic Early Stug III with short 75mm (even though the armour ratings may be different)

Oh btw, Kwazydog, what about the air recognition stripes the Soviets painted on their turrets in 1945. So much for the Plain Green!

Regardless, look forward to your final product (sure would be nice to see JS2s on the battlefield)!

Mace

[Stuka]

Mace, my taxes are contributing to your salary, I would appreciate it if you could do a little more public servicing and a little less ginning around on the forum.

Or else I'm gonna dob you in to the CJC

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hehe, dont worry, I know about them mace

Hell, Ive even got a picture here of a T-34

with a camo paint scheme, and brown dosnt seem uncommong either. It goes to show they didnt still to the green 100% of the time.

[Slapdragon]

I wish that each tank type could have 4-5 graphic files associated with it and a rules set (that could be modified) to allow the the game to pick the right one, or randomly pick from several schemes. For example:

slot1 early winter a

slot2 early summer a

slot3 early winter b

slot4 early summer b

slot5 late war a

rules:

If > nov 1943 then 1,2,3,4

if snow then rnd(10) 1-7=s1, 8-10=s3

if clear then rnd(10) 1-5=s2, 6-10=s4

if > nov 1943 then 1,3,5

if snow then rnd(10) 1-7=s1, 8-10=s3

if clear then S5

Thus mod designers could choose just to mod the winter uniform, could mod the whole group, and could even define when the game chooses which mod, allowing for special mods to appear only when certian events are satisfied.

[Formerly Babra]

Any chance of getting just a bit more consistency in German camo schemes? I'm well aware that camo application was more often than not ad hoc, but there ought to at least be some consistency within any given unit. As it is now, German formations in CM look like a rabble.

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I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

[Slapdragon]

I should also add that BTS need not ship every mod slot full, and the rules files could be text documents just as the mods are graphics files. That way they could ship 1-2 preset patterns, open the field to mod makers, and even maybe ship a mod pack for us to buy making them immensely rich, allowing Matt to pay for his new Mustang Convertable and Steve to get plumbing installed in that Maine house of his.

[Mord]

I lived in Maine half my life, Naples being the last place I resided....there is no such thing as plumbing.

And Steve and Charles are beyond the Wall, somewhere near East Gish I believe.

Mord.

[This message has been edited by Mord (edited 11-30-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mord:

I lived in Maine half my life, Naples being the last place I resided....there is no such thing as plumbing.

And Steve and Charles are beyond the Wall, somewhere near East Gish I believe.

Mord.

[This message has been edited by Mord (edited 11-30-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had a farm in New Hampshire for 3 years (alas, rented) and it was common knowledge that Mainers did not need plumbing because they never washed below the neck anyway and save the rest for their gardens. Of course, I could be off a little on this: our motto after all was "Live Free and Die Young"

[Guest KwazyDog]

Slapdragon, I am certainally hoping it will be possible to have multiple textures for each vehicle, even if as you say each slot is not filled

The rules part would probably take some time to code up though, and there are many many cool features on the list for CM2 that would probably be higher in importance. One to remember for the future though

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Hehe, dont worry, I know about them mace

Hell, Ive even got a picture here of a T-34

with a camo paint scheme, and brown dosnt seem uncommong either. It goes to show they didnt still to the green 100% of the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, let's take this further (excuse me if I try to ignore Stuka's yapping, cesspool leakage you know).

What references do you use, KD?

There's the Encyclopedia mentioned by Little_black_devil.

There is also a relatively new hardcover release detailing Soviet armour from 1914 to 1945 (title of which excapes me, but I'm keen to hunt this one down).

There's also the series of Concord photo journals (which are excellent btw) and Osprey's New Vangaurd series (each book on a specific AFV).

Another excellent reference is the Chronos video series on German AFVs.....covers not only the development of each of the major German AFVs, but the development of variants based on that particular Chassis (eg the Panther video also covers the Jagdpanther).

Just to see the battle footage of these in use is worth the money!

There's also those new CD-Roms!

Probably another resource would be the paint scheme found on the instructions of a model kit....these generally show the side, top and front view of a particular AFV

Mace

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

I have the same book sitting and few feet away and yup, I am certainally hoping to get a much wider selection of vehicles available for players in CM2 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got my copy sitting in arms reach too. Was just looking through it yesterday as a matter of fact, concerning Lord Fluffers confusion about the StuGIII and StuGIV.

[Måkjager]

Great to hear that there is hopefully going to be more vehicles in CM2 Kwazy , i would like to support Slapdragons idea for multi-mod slots too.

As couple of ???? now.

1. Seeing as CM2 will be bigger than CMBO , will the game be released on multi-CDs or DVD......

If we have the increased storage space will there be room for 2 side skins....so as we can have proper tac numbers on the Panzers ???

2. Will there be any improvments to the way the tracks are designed...so as to get a less sharp shape....ie wrap around the sprocket more realistically...can the "track" bmp be made into smaller links and then "stitched " to an invisible thread which goes around the sprocket/idler

Just a few thoughts

regards

Måkjager

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Once an Ubërcabbage

Always an Ubërcabbage

[Mord]

Snapdragon said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>it was common knowledge that Mainers did not need plumbing because they never washed below the neck anyway and save the rest for their gardens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well my brother and my mother both still live up there. By the looks of my brother's shirt collars and my mom's zucchini you just may be right.

Sorry folks for interrupting. And just so nobody thinks I am not serious about this discussion I agree with everything everybody has said so far.

Mord

[Olle Petersson]

Just a little half-grog knitpicking:

StuGIII versions A through F had the 75L24 gun, IIRC, and shouldn't be viewed as TDs, but assault guns. It was the G version that got the better gun and made it into Panzerjäger and Tank companies.

Cheers

Olle

[Guest wwb_99]

One thing that would be really cool is dynamic tank numbering. By this I mean that tanks have a skin as they do now, but can recieve numbers, like some of the mods have now. But these numbers would not be written into the skins but laid on top so as to create numbered tanks (at least for the Germans, get a bunch of cyrillic sayings and put it on the russian tanks). It would be really cool to by a panzer company and have the tanks numbered correctly.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Sergei]

Guys...

Calm down. Just calm down. I personally am looking for a playable tactical wargame about east front, not a slideshow of cool but totally useless graphical gimmicks.

Contribute with ideas concerning gameplay and mechanics.

[Guest Big Time Software]

While I disagree with Sergei's request that people not make suggestions like above, I will point out that it is highly unlikely that we will put much time into complex texture management. I think we can do a little better than we have now, but something like cohesive unit camo jobs is not likely.

Generally unit camo jobs were consistant only for a small unit. Like a Company of PzIVs for instance. And only when they went into battle with a newly refitted unit. But after some combat, i.e. losses and replacements, this cohesion broke down. Shortages of paint, time, and opportunitiy also meant that paint schemes were not always uniform.

However, there is a good reason to make the paint jobs for different vehicle variants rather unique -> easier to identify. For example, if we had the same looking texture set for the Panther A and early G, who would be able to tell which was which without clicking on it? And even the late G is recognizable only when up close. So there is this practical gameplay issue to keep in mind.

But... yes, CM will have a lot more vehicles to choose from. Most of the TDs listed above, that were relvanat to the Western Front, are in fact in the game already. So they will be available on the Eastern Front along with new ones. BTW, the Jagdtiger did serve on the Eastern Front. In fact, a JT with an 88mm King Tiger gun (4 were produced this way) was just recovered from Poland.

Steve