Fangorn Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Or Allied HTs underpriced? Let's compare the spw 251/1 and the M5A1: Speed 33 mph --- 38 mph Silhouette 73 --- 91 Transport 7 --- 8 Armor front 15@22º --- 8@0º side 8@35º --- 8@0º back 8@32º --- 8@0º weapons mg w/ 57 ammo --- .30 and .50 w/ 125 ammo each Cost 47 (reg) 42 (reg) I can't understand why the German carrier costs more than the allied one. The "better" armor doesn't adds much (if at all) to its resistence. The 8 mm armor of the M5A1 is enough against mg42 fire in medium range. And even the 15 mm of armor isn't enough against the mighty .50 mg. I don't believe the smaller silhouette can justify the points difference. The M5A1 is faster, is able to carry more troops and got two machine guns (and one is a .50!) with almost infinite ammo. And the German HTs suffer a lot from the 60mm and 2in mortar direct fire, something Allied HTs are almost protected from. Perhaps the 251/1 should cost something around 35 points? What you think? [This message has been edited by Fangorn (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Oh you're just upset because I'm beating you in our pbem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 35 is too small. 38-41 pts seems appropriate. I agree with your assessment! ------------------ And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve My website! A major source of Wild Bill scenarios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 You could take the time it took you to write this message and play the bloddy game Pillar! One turn per week is a bit slow for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Fang The game is at home, and home I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 I was going to post about this myself. Main point is the ammo load. US HT makes an exellent fire support unit, while the german one is almost worthless. But there's also the fact, that once the crew casualty bug is fixed, M5A1 is once again invulnerable to small arms fire. I guess the better armor and silhouette should be factored in, but the german unit should still be cheaper. 35-40 sounds right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Yeah but M5s were just much more readily available. Make 251/1s to cheap and theyll become a lot more common than they really were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers: Yeah but M5s were just much more readily available. Make 251/1s to cheap and theyll become a lot more common than they really were.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Rarity of the vehicles is not calculated into any of the prices, only the effectiveness. Halftracks shouldn't be an exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers: Yeah but M5s were just much more readily available. Make 251/1s to cheap and theyll become a lot more common than they really were.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Once again it must be reiterated that CM's point costs have NOTHING to do with rarity factors. ONLY the actual combat performance in game's own terms are factored in current point costs. And yes, I agree that spw 251/1 seems to be overcosted when compared to M5A1. Of course it can be that MG42's armor penetration performance is too lousy. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 No excuses Mr. Pillar! The way this is going it'll take over a year to finish this boring map! Collin, 35 points is still a lot if you compare it to the M5A1, which has over twice firepower and twice more ammo. I don't see the extra armor doing any difference. Jarmo, yes, the M5A1 is sweet in its infantry support role. And its ammo allows it to fire all the time. In general, the German HTs are always in a dangerous position as it's certain they will face light mortar fire, not to mention .50 mg fire. That alone should be a reason for German HTs to cost less, if they were identical to Allied ones, not to mention when they are very inferior to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fangorn: In general, the German HTs are always in a dangerous position as it's certain they will face light mortar fire, not to mention .50 mg fire. That alone should be a reason for German HTs to cost less, if they were identical to Allied ones, not to mention when they are very inferior to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think enemy weapons should really influence the price. Especially since not all the allies are US. British don't have the .50, so the german cars are quite safe from their MG vehicles. [This message has been edited by Jarmo (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted November 16, 2000 Author Share Posted November 16, 2000 Jarmo, The enemy's weapons must influence the price of a unit. How much would a King Tinger cost if the Allies didn't have tungsten rounds? More, I assume. The same thing happens to HT. Granted, how to come up with a price when only the US have the .50? (the M5A1 has one, but it's the only one for the Brits) Perhaps that's counted in the .50 price... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensch Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Personal quirk... how come the german HT does not have two MG's?? I got endless pics of german HTs.. with a mg foward over the drivers compartment and one or two hanging on the rear or side of the sucker.. or are those rare occations that they had that... or propaganda pics.. who knows.. anyone have a clue? -------- Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by mensch (edited 11-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Mensch is correct. Nearly all 251's had a second MG mount at the rear of the vehicle. This was a swivel mount, and was intended for use against aircraft (and anything else for that matter). It is puzzling that it was not included. In a future update, this should be fixed, and the ammo count increased for the 251, as it is rediculously small.. ------------------ "Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Indeed the price for a 251/1 can go down but they weren't that rare. Certainly not around 1944 almost all the good and crack panzergrenadierdivision were equiped with it. If I am not wrong some 14000 were built. And the second mg was often taken into the field by the infantryteam to bring on more firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 According to data at George Parada's WWW.ACHTUNGPANZER.COM it indeed seems true that SPW 250/1, 251/1, 251/9 and 251/16 had TWO machineguns. I couldn't find info on models 250/7 and 251/2. Also the same source shows that ALL Marder models had a machinegun. These too are currently missing in CM. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Speaking of HTs. Does anyone know of a darker or subdued mod for the Germans? With all of the terrific subdued terrain and bldg mods out, the current German HTs are too bright IMHO. I haven't been able to find any. ------------------ If it bleeds..we can kill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Without reading the above posts. I belive they are overpriced hamsters. ------------------ --"We want information." --"Information." --"Information." --"Who are you?" --"The new Number 2." --"Who is Number 1?" --"You are Number 6." --"I am not a number, I am a free man!" --"Hahahahahahahaha." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Not that this currently effects cost, but Halftracks were much rarer in German divisions. IIRC, only the infantry attached to the Panzer Regiment and the recon Bn had HTs, (possibly 1 bn/ PzGr regiment as well). Everyone else rode trucks (where availiable). WWB ------------------ Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Some quick thoughts in general, then some more specific comments about the relative prices later... 1. We do not base the unit price on what individual weapons can kill it. This is silly (sorry ) because it is too complicated to do, too subjective to circumstnace, and also dependent on the date in question (i.e. unit availability is highly variable). Nope, the only way is to rate the vehicle's price based on its overall capabilities, which includes offensive and defensive abilities along with other things. 2. The 251/1 does not have a secondary AA MG in CM because there is no crew member to man it. Standard crew for a 251/1 was just two men and a single MG. The second MG you see in pictures was most likely the Squad's LMG, which they would attach upon entering the vehicle, and detatch prior to going into CM level combat. So we will not be adding a second MG to the rear of a 251/1. It would be of very limited value against ground targets even if we did (small firing arc and exposed shooter). And the ammo for the main MG is accurate from what we know of ammo loadouts for HTs. 3. Rarity is something that is not factored into the game right now. If it were, the cost of the 251/1 would probably go up. They weren't rare, but they were uncommon to say the least. In theory, the first battlion in a Panzergrenadier Regiment was outfitted with HTs. In theory All the rest road in trucis. In theory I keep saying "theory" because the Germans almost never had their divisions up to established strength. Pazner division recon elements also used a variety of 250 and 251 models to replace their armored cars. The Allies, on the other hand, had HTs out the wazoo Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 What about the missing MGs on Marders? Are there historical reasons for their absence? Although I have to admit that I usually like Marder's "stealth" ability, because it doesn't reveal it's position right away by pinging the target with mg-fire. Gives an impression of lurking predator Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa: What about the missing MGs on Marders? Are there historical reasons for their absence? Ari<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> MG's on Marders were not standand I beleave. Some Marders had a removeable MG34 mounted on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted November 17, 2000 Author Share Posted November 17, 2000 Steve, 1. Yes, that would be almost impossible to achieve, but, you know, if anyone can do it, I'm sure it is BTS A better balance of forces can be achieved by the map maker, but it is hard. 2. So the 251/1 have a slot for a squad mg. That would be intersting, but problaby not worth the trouble to do it. Still, I believe the 251/1 price should go down. It's not worth 47 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa: Although I have to admit that I usually like Marder's "stealth" ability, because it doesn't reveal it's position right away by pinging the target with mg-fire. Gives an impression of lurking predator <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wonder if that has an effect on accuracy. The MG firing was half to force the prey to button and half to make aiming easier. So, with no MG pinging, should Marder be less accurate? BTS comments were spot-on, but the german HT's should still be cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravesRegistration Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 i am glad they (halftracks)are over priced.. CM alows too much use of them in battle situations. Most of the time in real combat, troops would dismount as soon as they got to the front. They all knew those things where deathtraps as early as 42. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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