TD survivability

[109 Gustav]

What is the best way to use my tank destroyers to battle tanks? Should I move and dodge fire, or am I best off sitting still and slugging it out? I'll try to knock out a tiger with 3 Hellcat TDs, and lose all of them, with no real damage to the tiger. What can I do to improve this?

[killmore]

In this situation you probably need to get much closer to the tiger. Hellcats shells are not effective on tiger over 1000 meters.

But for PanzerIV it will not be a problem.

[dano6]

Actually, the US designed TDs were meant to move and then shoot and then move and shoot again. Getting in a slugging match with a M10, M36 or M18 against heavy German armor will result in many losses for you. What you have to remember is that the US TDs sacraficed armor thickness and weight for mobility. The M18 is extremely fast for a WW2 tank: max speed 50 mph. Use the speed to outflank the German armor and hit them in the sides. As for the LD scenario, if the Tiger is all that is left against the 3 hellcats the Tiger should be dead in its tracks. Also remember that the 76mm gun without the APCR ammo is only effective against the Tiger at a range of around 800m or less. If the 76mm gun has the APCR ammo (T) symbol then you can easily kill the Tiger at ranges up to 2000m. It will be real interesting once we get some scenarios were some manuevering can take place and the US gets some tungsten ammo.

dano6

[SS_PanzerLeader]

It also depends on the angle of attack, if the position of the tiger is such that the hellcats are shooting from a substantially higher elevation, then the hellcat odds of destroying the tiger are greatly increased

I've taken out many tigers with those hell cats becasuse of positioning

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Black Sabot]

I agree with dano6, use the TD's advantage in speed. If you get all 3 off the hill and into town intact then your chances of tagging his ass are greatly increased.

[Username]

It would be nice if there were a shoot'n'scoot command or be allowed to do the following string of commands:

Hunt (advance over cover to a good firing position)

Pause (as long as you dare..each pause gives x amount of seconds)

Reverse (back to behind cover/concealment)

This approximates how TDs and even tanks operate. Very few vehicles have the armor/gun/balls to climb a commanding terrain feature and sit and shoot all comers. Its just unrealistic. Vehicles like Marders operated like snipers, long range engagements from behind good cover and then move to a new position. Something like a Hetzer could operate from a hull down position as long as it "knew" enemies were all to the front. Even then changing position would be wise.

Lewis

[Moon]

Lewis - you can do exactly that with the available commands. There are several ways to do it, here's a less obivous one (and one which has worked great for me a lot of times):

- on turn 1, issue your tank several pause commands to the effect that it will start moving out of cover at the end of that turn only.

- on turn 2, add a reverse command to that tank.

What happens is that there will be a command delay between the first and second order (because they were not given in the same turn).

Of course you could also use the HUNT command forward and have the tank back up in the next turn - disadvantage here is that your tank will usually be visible for a much longer time (30-35 sec) than in the first example (10-15 sec).

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Lewis - you can do exactly that with the available commands. There are several ways to do it, here's a less obivous one (and one which has worked great for me a lot of times):

- on turn 1, issue your tank several pause commands to the effect that it will start moving out of cover at the end of that turn only.

- on turn 2, add a reverse command to that tank.

What happens is that there will be a command delay between the first and second order (because they were not given in the same turn).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure if that is exactly what Lewis wanted. This way you loose the action during the better part of two turns. If I got him correctly, he (and me too, for that matter) would like to be able to peek repeatedly during a turn. A tank can go a long way in 35 seconds.

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Andreas

[Moon]

Germanboy - a tank actually can't go very far in 35 seconds if it has to accelerate, stop, look for a target, accelerate rearwards, stop, go forwards again...

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Germanboy - a tank actually can't go very far in 35 seconds if it has to accelerate, stop, look for a target, accelerate rearwards, stop, go forwards again...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, my mistake. I meant the tank(s) you are trying to kill by peeking across the ridge can go far.

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Andreas

[Username]

Moon thats good thinking. But I think its more realistic to be able to do this move when I want/need to. A target on a road can go pretty far if I have to wait that long.

I also think the AI should be smart enough to have the unit make its own decisions. Example would be:

Stug hunts over a crest of a hill. Spots 3 shermans 150 meters away. No matter what the issued orders it should back up immediately (preferably after popping smoke).

It might also just reverse till only one sherman is in view and then engage it.

One of the things I was hoping the game would have would be expanded menu options depending on unit type. This would add flavor to the different types of units.

Example:

Conscripts menu reads

1. Move

2. Shoot

3. Hide

4. Run

Elite SS panzergrenadier

1.Move

2.Crawl

3.Sneak

4.Target

5.Ambush

6.Assault

7.Hide

8.Withdraw

9.Run

10.Antitank

11.Recon

12Etc

Anyway better troops should have more options to reflect their experience and training.

Lewis

Lewis

[Moon]

Alright, Germanboy, got it now.

The AI is actually quite smart in this respect, Lewis. It will back up regardless of your orders when faced with what it recognizes as impossible odds. But it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it will do so. I've had Tigers back up when fired on by a single 57mm AT Gun (which I knew having made the scenario, but the AI obviously didn't), and I've seen Shermans take on a couple of Tigers. The fuzzy logic behind the AI makes things... "fuzzy"...

And if you really need to get that target moving down the road before it disappears - no problem. Just issue a HUNT order when you need it. What you sacrifice is the control of what happens next and leave it to the tank commander (the AI) to decide. Imagine yourself as platoon leader screaming into the radio "Down on the road, quick, quick!" without much time to explain the tank crew to move forward 4 meters, engage, then withdraw into cover and wait for further orders..."

The reasoning behind this is very simple - if you as the player were able to command your units down to the very second, your complete force of 200 plus soldiers and a dozen tanks would work like one helluva machine: way too much coordination to be realistic.

CM's system allows you to do a lot of things when you need to, but at the same time it limits your ability to micromange certain things. IMO it achieves this extremely well with very little headache for the player.

BTW, your idea of customized order menus for certain troop types is very good IMO. I really like it...

[Guest mch]

Seems that we've heard alot from BTS about

improvements in the TAC AI.I wonder if

we'll still be wanting order improvements

when we get the final?I was verry impressed

with the article Fionn put up on CMHQ.Never

seen the beta build do anything THAT tricky.

P.S.:I'd really like a MOVE TO HULL DOWN order!

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It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised.

-attr.to Fredrick the Great-

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-13-2000).]

[coe]

So what is the best way to defeat

tank-destroyers.... Let's say

PZIV vs. Hellcats. Are there any major

advantages tanks have (in general) over

tank-destroyers. Looking at Jadgepanzers,

one of answers is obvious, they aren't

turreted and have reasonalbe armour. But

against Hellcats it isn't, they are fast

reasonably good gun, and have a turret...

would it be reasonable to say a Hellcat

would kick a sherman's butt (or even a grant)

so why not build just hellcats....

And so lets say you are a couple of panthers

and you do run upon some hellcats what do

you do.

[foxhole]

what exactly is being Hull down and what does it do.sorry for my ignorance

greg

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

The reasoning behind this is very simple - if you as the player were able to command your units down to the very second, your complete force of 200 plus soldiers and a dozen tanks would work like one helluva machine: way too much coordination to be realistic.

BTW, your idea of customized order menus for certain troop types is very good IMO. I really like it...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I see myself as the guiding light in a turn, not a real time control freak.

I believe the allies and germans were about even with battlefield communications and control (with the americans having an edge in radios/walky-talkys) so I think the game plays very well. Obviously the player is omni-aware of the total situation as far as his forces can percieve it. In real life, a tank would have no clue what a morter crew can see. Thats why I like the idea of having multiplayers per side. One guy handles the US armor, another handles the US infantry and arty, and the same for the opposing side.

On the russian front, I think CM will have to account for the primitive soviet CCC techniques. I was thinking perhaps the soviet player could issue orders to units but every time he picks a unit he risks having the "done" button pushed for him. Units close to his "command unit" would have a much reduced chance of triggering this, units far away have a greater. The german player has the same effect in place but at a much reduced percentage. Its a little abstracted but the soviets had poor radios and sometimes recieve only radios.

Lewis

PS Thanks for the compliment. I suggested it on the Talonsoft East front board maybe 2 years ago and I think it ended up with me getting chucked for some reason or another.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mch:

P.S.:I'd really like a MOVE TO HULL DOWN order!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear ya. But I think you would have to specify hull down to where? Its probably trickier than you think.

Lewis

[Lurker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coe:

But against Hellcats it isn't, they are fast

reasonably good gun, and have a turret...

would it be reasonable to say a Hellcat

would kick a sherman's butt (or even a grant)

so why not build just hellcats....

And so lets say you are a couple of panthers

and you do run upon some hellcats what do

you do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Hellcat is good on the attack against armor, but has a limited supply of HE rounds, limiting its use against soft targets. The Hellcat also has very light armor. While its gun is nice, I would not expect to see them survive for any length of time on the battlefield.

While I haven't seen the Panther versus Hellcat scenario in Combat Mission, I would expect that the Panthers would destroy an equal (or slightly superior) force of Hellcats in a meeting engagement. The Panther's 75mm main gun is superior to the Hellcat's 76mm main gun. The Panther's armor is significantly superior to the Hellcat's armor. The only thing that the Hellcat would have going for it is superior numbers and support.

I hope this answers your questions...

Lurker

[Lorak]

Getting Hull down is easy with a little practice. You just issue the hunt command up the slope. (not all the way to the top ) when your tank spots the enemy he'll stop. usually in a nice hull down position. By using the diffrent armor you learn to gage how far up you need to go (so that if nothing is spotted you don't go to far).

It is also very helpful to pre-target the enemy before moving. that way your tank starts switching ammo, getting ready to fire, while the target is still out of LOS. So when the target does come into LOS you fire really quickly.

Hull-down: when the Hull of your tank is hidden or protected from the enemy. basically the only part of your tank showing to the enemy is from the main-gun up.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Foxhole:

No, problem.

"Hull down" is basically when a vehicle has its hull (lower structure of the vehicle) behind some sort of cover, yet has its upper structure (turret in most cases) above the cover so that it can still fire. Any vehicle can become hull down, even turretless vehicles such as the Hetzer. They simply had less 'lower structure' to cover

Also note: that "hull down" is relative to not only the defending vehicle's position but also to the attacker's position. For example: a Panzer could be "hull down" behind a wall firing at Sherman tanks advancing across a field in front of the wall at the same elevation. But this same Panzer might very well NOT be "hull down" versus fire directed against it from other units positioned on a hill. This is one of the nice features that is so easy for CM to simulate with its 3D engine that is completely impossible to accurately simulate in any other PC wargame I have seen.

Basically, "hull down" placement allows the vehicle to take advantage of cover by presenting a smaller target while not hindering its ability to attack.

Any more questions don't be afraid to ask, someone will chime in.

Later

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[dano6]

Actually, Lurker you forgot one major advantage that the M18 has over the Panther: An extreme advantage in speed and manueverability. Its gun is definitely capable of penetrating the front turret armor of the Panther at closer ranges(1500m+) with the APCR ammo. And any flank shots would definitely kill the Panther at ranges over 2500m. So in a stand up brawl the hellcat would lose big time against an equal force of Panthers, but this is not what the M18 was designed for. The engagement would depend on the terrain present and the room for manuever. A force of M18s could easily chew up an equal force of Panthers if used correctly against a stationary openent that thinks the Panther would easily kill the M18s. Remember the 3 concepts of armored warfare: Manuever, Armor, Firepower. The M18 wins the Manuever hands down, the Panther wins the armor hands down, and the Panther wins the Firepower by some. But Speed is key on the battlefield. A unit that can move very quickly is very hard to hit.

Just saying that the Panther would easily kill a group of M18s is a mistake. If both forces are manuevered correctly, the fight should be a little in the favor of the Panther but not an easy kill by any means.

dano6

[Ron]

A problem I find with the hunt/reverse commands on a crest, to simulate the shoot and scoot tactic, is if your hunt is too far forward, the vehicle will stop to engage the enemy armor without carrying out the rest of the movement order and ends up being exposed for the whole minute of action. It does take practice to get it right and even then it doesn't always work out. I tend now to do as Moon suggested, ie hunt forward at the end of the turn then reverse out next turn.

It would be nice to have a separate set of commands for this as Username described, especially when the enemy is spotted already, but perhaps that is too much control within the one minute time frame or is too difficult to implement. Just my thoughts.

Ron

[Lurker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dano6:

Actually, Lurker you forgot one major advantage that the M18 has over the Panther: An extreme advantage in speed and manueverability. Its gun is definitely capable of penetrating the front turret armor of the Panther at closer ranges(1500m+) with the APCR ammo. And any flank shots would definitely kill the Panther at ranges over 2500m. So in a stand up brawl the hellcat would lose big time against an equal force of Panthers, but this is not what the M18 was designed for. The engagement would depend on the terrain present and the room for manuever. A force of M18s could easily chew up an equal force of Panthers if used correctly against a stationary openent that thinks the Panther would easily kill the M18s. Remember the 3 concepts of armored warfare: Manuever, Armor, Firepower. The M18 wins the Manuever hands down, the Panther wins the armor hands down, and the Panther wins the Firepower by some. But Speed is key on the battlefield. A unit that can move very quickly is very hard to hit.

Just saying that the Panther would easily kill a group of M18s is a mistake. If both forces are manuevered correctly, the fight should be a little in the favor of the Panther but not an easy kill by any means.

dano6

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have a very good point about speed and maneuverability. Most of my gaming experience against US Tank Destroyers has lead me to believe that they're extremely fragile. Perhaps my somewhat skewed personal experience has led me to this erroneous opinion.

However, all of that speed and maneuverability that protects them from being hit also makes it hard for them to hit anything. Eventually the Hellcats are going to have to stop and take a shot. If they've managed to maneuver to the Panthers' flank, then all is well and good. However, if the Panther is in position to take a shot, then things do not look so good.

When Combat Mission ships, I'll get a chance to learn its version of the reality of the WWII battlefield.

Thanks,

-Lurker

[This message has been edited by Lurker (edited 04-14-2000).]

[dano6]

The problem with playing against normal game AIs is that the US TDs are never used as they should be. Also many players do not take advantage of the greater manueverability to get better firing positions. While The TDs are very fragile, especially the M18, they are also faster and more manueverable than their advesaries. They should be used in a shoot and scoot method to protect them. I have never seen any AI use them in this method, and have had very few opponents use them correctly. Again if they are used correctly, especially the M18 and M36, they can be very effective.

dano6

[Guest Big Time Software]

I'd have to say the real problem with shoot and scoot is not CM's interface, but what goes on in our heads as players It is *so* damned tempting to try and get "one more shot" before pulling back (if the TacAI hasn't already done it). This is the problem of the player not being an actual TD commander in an actual TD in an actual life or death situation. I am sure the temptation for "one more shot" wasn't nearly as strong for the real life TD commander as it is for the abstracted game player. But to use TDs effectively (at least the Allied ones) we players are going to HAVE to learn to use them better or... see ya!

Steve