TD survivability

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

But to use TDs effectively (at least the Allied ones) we players are going to HAVE to learn to use them better or... see ya!

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Dano said, the AI never uses them effectively (well at least in the demo) either. Mobility is as great a weapon as the gun, more so when you are overmatched by an oponent.

So until we players and the AI starts to use such real world tactics its "see ya" for realism.

Lewis

[SS_PanzerLeader]

USERNAME what gives it seems everytime Steve posts you have to take an aggressive opposing standpoint - whats the deal man?

[Guest Kettle Black]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So until we players and the AI starts to use such real world tactics its "see ya" for realism.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try this: Order an AFV to "Hunt" up into a hull down situation and then order it to "Reverse" back out of LOS. No need to use any "Pause" orders imo. Sometimes the vehicle will see something tasty and disregard the "Reverse" order and start blowing things up, sometimes it will disregard a very juicy target for reasons not understood by us players and reverse.

Sh*t happens and we as virtual commanders have to deal with it. That's life and reality as I know it.

Try this a few times (with the StuG's in CE for instance). And if you know of any completed game out there that handles a similar situation more realistically I would honestly love to know about it. The AI in the CM beta is several leagues better than any flight-sim AI that I've encountered, for example.

Kettle Black

[Username]

I guess I am just pissed that I was up 3 stugs to 2 shermans in a email CE and now its 1 on 1. Stug had last sherman in view and decided to change ammo and go after a retreating MG crew! I told stug to target sherman, he had the drop on the sherman and decides he knows whats best. Fuzzy Illogic to me. Yes I told him to hunt and creep up a hill and he spotted the sherman. Crap.

Lewis

Lewis

[Lorak]

Kettle,

That is what I do. I hunt up the crest and issue a reverse order. Usually works pretty well. The only problem I have is (when your outgunned) is I wish there was a "pop shot" option. I'll explain, Sherman vs. a Tiger.

Sherman hunts up the slope to get a shot of at the tiger. He gets a good postion and fires. Here is the problem, It seems he just continues to fire at the target until it or him is dead.

If I was a commander I would fire once and yell something like "damn missed! back up! back up!"

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[SS_PanzerLeader]

well I have seen Stugs preform marverlously in situations where the AI takes over - just as much as I've seen them do things I woulda rather they didnt

I had a Stug Hull down with a shot on a Sherm on the ridgeline in CE, he popped smoke and slammed it into reverse - I was like WTF - then three more sherms crested the ridge with a fourth trailing behind just as he cleared the smoke

I was then able to hunt back up next turn and whack two of them - the others being blocked by mortar smoke - I got one the next turn with another STUG - and then proceeded to whack the other two with fausts/schreks

In my other CE game a similar situation but was unable to get the smoke off and I lost three tanks three turns

I think the AI is great , better than any AI I've ever seen - I wouldnt play the comp in any other wargames I've had cause it sucked

It' seems some people just want perfection and it aint happening nor would it be realistic

there are 4-5 crew members in most tanks and geting them to cooperate down to each and every order at the exact second you want it would just be way outta line

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader:

It' seems some people just want perfection and it aint happening nor would it be realistic

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want realism, that would be perfect. I think others would too.

Lewis

[Moon]

Which leads to the question: what is "mobility" on a tactical scale such as Combat Missions's?

[SS_PanzerLeader]

IF you want realism to that extent get a job as a merc

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Which leads to the question: what is "mobility" on a tactical scale such as Combat Missions's?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a motion control engineer let me answer by saying:

Position

Velocity

Acceleration

I have already seen that running infantry works best under some circumstances. Especially with a slow loading gun targeting you.

With vehicles its a sure thing they cant hit what they cant see. So the shoot and scoot works wonders. Its also (in real life anyway) a great ruse to make it seem you have more weapons than you do. I dont know how well the acceleration of vehicles is potrayed in the game (or turrets either). They seem to decel to a "dead" stop.

Lewis

PS SSPNZRLKR are the mercs hiring?

[Moon]

Could you explain this for a non-motion control engineer with regard to my question?

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Username - the mercs are always hiring

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Kurtz]

Wouldn´t it be nice to be able to issue pause commands between movement waypoints?

This way you could stop, survey the terrain and then move on, perhaps faster (hunt to a hulldown position - pause 15s

- move fast to another position).

[SS_PanzerLeader]

YEs I would like to be able to do this with fire commands also:

FIRE ON AREA 30secs

PAUSE

HUNT FORWARD

Eetc

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Could you explain this for a non-motion control engineer with regard to my question?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought I had. But maybe I can add more.

Mobility on the CM scale would be concerned with a vehicles ability to cross different terrain types epecially soft terrain that might 'bog' vehicles.

Since all moving objects need to accelerate to attain speed, this would be a critical vehicle parameter. You could relate its top speed, HP, Weight and perhaps transmission to get some idea what the accel was like. The speed of a vehicle makes it harder to hit when shooting at it and easier for it to get behind cover. In battle conditions crews push the vehicles to the wall. They quickly change gears, max out RPMs and do whatever it takes to stay alive.

AntiTank guns that are towed are much less effective than self-propelled or TDs. I think ATG that were larger than 57mm were dinosaurs by the end of the war. I threw that in because the threat is 'TD survivabilty'.

Lewis

[SS_PanzerLeader]

ISn't this more or less a factor already accounted for refelected by crew experience?

[Moon]

Well, Lewis, all of the things you mentioned are in CM. Although all vehicles come to a dead stop when braking (has something to do with coding issues I believe), acceleration in fact is part of the simulation. Not only that, accelerating up a slope for example takes longer.

Accurate maximum speeds are in CM as well, check the detailed unit info to see the max values. These are, however, used only on paved roads and adjusted accordingly for other terrain. Vehicles also slow down when taking curves.

Ground pressure and the chance to bog are simulated also. The lighter US Tank Destroyers certainly have some advantages here (although it also depends on track width as you know, so there are light vehicles which actually bog down quite a lot - like the early M4's if I recall correctly).

In other words - and after your explanation - the mobility of tank destroyers can be very well simulated and used in CM. I have seen the AI use them extremely well, to be honest. I have seen an M10 move from behind a house, pop a couple of shots, reverse, move down a slope and into my flank, pop again and so on. The AI in CM actually excels when it comes down to armor and its use (I'd rate it an A for armor and a B for infantry right now).

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Well, Lewis, all of the things you mentioned are in CM.

(although it also depends on track width as you know, so there are light vehicles which actually bog down quite a lot - like the early M4's if I recall correctly).

I have seen an M10 move from behind a house, pop a couple of shots, reverse, move down a slope and into my flank, pop again and so on. The AI in CM actually excels when it comes down to armor and its use (I'd rate it an A for armor and a B for infantry right now).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Moon

I assume you have more than the currently released demo? (since you are using M10s?). I realize even from the demo I have, that all these things can or are modeled at this level. Now if I could use a pause order in the middle of a string of other orders, I would be the proverbial happy camper.

Getting bogged depends on the ground pressure of the tracks mainly. Getting unbogged aint that simple. A heavier vehicle that has been mud-bellied is a freaking bitch to recover. Ive done it and believe me a couple of bulldozers helps alot.

Good reading is "DEATH TRAPS". The author gives a first hand account of tank retrieval of an american armored divisions vehicles in WWII europe. He absolutely states the sherman was a mistake (as a MBT) and places the blame on Pattons shoulders. I consider these historical accounts worth 50 speculations from historians and armchair warriors. He gives accounts of mud so bad that it literally puts a suction effect on the bottom of the tank. Good book. Some errors on german armor but forgivable.

Lewis

[Herr Oberst]

Username, I was paging through my 653 Heavy Tank Hunter battalion book other night and saw a truly scary photo of a sitting duck.

Translate sitting duck to a KV-1 that got "hull down" by sinking into mud to the point that none of the road wheels OR return wheels were visible.

Yikes!

[:USERNAME:]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurtz:

Wouldn´t it be nice to be able to issue pause commands between movement waypoints?

This way you could stop, survey the terrain and then move on, perhaps faster (hunt to a hulldown position - pause 15s

- move fast to another position). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it would. I would also put in that it would be a very good thing to check LOS from that pause place. But once you pause and chaeck, you cant take back the pause.

Just to keep things nice.

Lewis