Col Deadmarsh Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I played a point QB against someone with me as Germans defending 3 flags. For some reason, he had enough money to buy 12 infantry squads to my 6 and match my support and armor while fielding all vets to my regulars. I find this to be very unfair as the defender. How is one supposed to defend with so little pts? What I'd like to know is what are the attacker's points when given mine? What is the ratio? Also, shouldn't this be on the AAR at the end of the game? What about any handicapps that might be put in there by the host of the game? How can the visitor tell if the handicapp was raised for the host if it's not on the AAR? Better yet, it should be at the beginning of battle so each player knows that it is a level playing field. Well, BTS, can this be done for the next patch? I think it would put a lot of us players at ease knowing everything is on the up and up. ------------------ Everything in moderation...except CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 If it was an Assault (as opposed to an Attack or a Probe), he would have had much stronger forces than you. If there is a handicap, a dialogue will inform you of this at the beginning of the game. David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Hey, Well the point difference is intentional. The presumption is most situations is that it is far easier to defend. Your troops begin dug in with foxholes, and you get a much larger deployment area to carefully plan ambushes etc... This being said, I don't disagree that listing handicaps in the AAR isn't a bad idea. The ability to print the AAR to a text file would be nice too. Reaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 What were the parameters of the game? What type of force (comb. arms, Mech, etc...) Did both of you field? What type of battle (probe, assault, etc...) did you play? How many points did you as the defender have to purchase with? ------------------ Charlie don't surf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: I played a point QB against someone with me as Germans defending 3 flags. For some reason, he had enough money to buy 12 infantry squads to my 6 and match my support and armor while fielding all vets to my regulars. fatherof6 once posted: Ratio (attacker points/defender points) Assualt (2 / 1) Attack (1.6 / 1) Probe (1.35 / 1) Meet. Engagement (1 / 1) ...I assume this was calculated based on experimentation. If your battle is an Assault that would explain the "problem". I find this to be very unfair as the defender. How is one supposed to defend with so little pts? That's what Model, von Rundstedt, and their brethren kept saying. What about any handicapps that might be put in there by the host of the game? How can the visitor tell if the handicapp was raised for the host if it's not on the AAR? Handicap info appears at the beginning of the scenario- you have to clear the announcement to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: What I'd like to know is what are the attacker's points when given mine? What is the ratio? Also, shouldn't this be on the AAR at the end of the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IIRC, the ratios are: Meeting engagement: even Probe: Uhh, can't remember Attack: Attacker=Defenderx1.5 Assault: Attacker=Defenderx2 ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 The battle in question was setup with ALL DEFAULT settings except the points allotted which were 700. The computer chose forces automatically. The Allies attacked with (all veteran Americans) forces were as follows: US OOB 2 x rifle Plt. 1 x Eng. Plt. 2 x flamethrower 1 x 60mm mortar 1 x 30cal. HMG 1 x bazooka 1 x M5A1 Halftrack 1 x Sherman 75 (w) 105mm art. Obs. -------------------------- Axis (regulars) (as close as I could see) 1 x smg Plt. 1 x pioneer Plt. 1 x flamethrower 1 x 81mm mortar 1 x pak40 75mm ATG 1 x Panther G 105mm artillery obs.( maybe 120mm mortar?) (This may not be a complete Axis OOB) [This message has been edited by Abbott (edited 09-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: I played a point QB against someone with me as Germans defending 3 flags. For some reason, he had enough money to buy 12 infantry squads to my 6 and match my support and armor while fielding all vets to my regulars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nine squads, not twelve. Two squads were split into teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Abbott wrote: > Nine squads, not twelve. Two squads were split into teams. Deception successful! David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 You know, it looks about even to me Colonel. That Panther is a killer. A few good tanks are much better in a tank on tank than a lot of poor tanks, since one well handled Panther can smoke a half dozen Sherman 75z before they pount the Panther into dust, and the Panther can kill the 75w halfway across the largest board you could realisticly play with those forces. I would play Abbott with those forces taking the German because he has to get my Panther with the flamethrowers or the artillery, or throw away his tanks to get an A-Kill then tackly my skillfully hidden defenders clustered around two of the three flags with LOS to the third, with possibly an outpost ambush to kill his tanks before they can even get close to my Sherman. Abbott's ranking is not bad, he could still, using my strategy, slip my sides or do any number of things that could mess me up, and one of the flamethrowers getting into my midst would kill me, but that seems fair and square. If anything, the Panther tilts it in the German favor, since I need to touch my nose on its butt with my Sherman to do more than scratch its paint (as was the case in real life.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbott: Axis (regulars) (as close as I could see) 1 x smg Plt. 1 x pioneer Plt. 1 x flamethrower 1 x 81mm mortar 1 x pak40 75mm ATG 1 x Panther G 105mm artillery obs.( maybe 120mm mortar?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To the main point about the thread: Yes I believe that all points/operations stats(weather, turns, attack defend, terrain etc.) should be provided before the start of play by the game. But it doesn't and it isn't a game killer so imho no big deal.. On to a side point. The above forces were MORE than adequate to defend against the american forces described. I don't see the problem, maybe FOW was off? *shrug* Sounds a lil like sour grapes to me. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 12, 2000 Author Share Posted September 12, 2000 Ok, I suppose I'm convinced that there was no deception going on. I will report to the house ladder today. This will be the last time though I let the computer choose my units for me. I'm still disgusted with the lack of points and choice of units I was awarded. No shreck?!!!! As for the amount of pts the person assaulting, attacking, or probing gets, I'd like to hear the others thoughts on if these pts are fair or not. Anyone? P.S.--Thanks to those posting the ratios...if they are indeed correct. ------------------ Everything in moderation...except CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 This issue isn't nearly as important as whether or not there will be a sequel. I think there should be a sequel, as CM is a great game. It should be in Russia, because there was a lot of fighting there. Will someone tell me if there will be a sequel? Please!!!! BTS, will there be a sequel??? And 12-man squads? And a SturmTiger? And why don't my troops stop when they get shot at by an enemy after I've ordered them to run across a field? And how is it the computer always knows where my IG is in every battle? Do you want game that works or somefink??????? ------------------ Did someone compare this to the Ealing comedies? I've shot people for less. -David Edelstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: If anything, the Panther tilts it in the German favor, since I need to touch my nose on its butt with my Sherman to do more than scratch its paint (as was the case in real life.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unless you get a gun hit... Reaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Actually the game winner was being able to slip my bazooka team up to 13 meters of the Panthers flank. One shot kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Ok, I suppose I'm convinced that there was no deception going on. I will report to the house ladder today. This will be the last time though I let the computer choose my units for me. I'm still disgusted with the lack of points and choice of units I was awarded. No shreck?!!!! As for the amount of pts the person assaulting, attacking, or probing gets, I'd like to hear the others thoughts on if these pts are fair or not. Anyone? P.S.--Thanks to those posting the ratios...if they are indeed correct. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I always thought the attacking/assaulting ratio was too low for the attacker. I still don't see the issue here, you had some bad luck or bad positioning and lost, it happens. In the AAR you can go count every body on the field and count the exact points if you think there is cheating. But it really just sounds to me like you think there was cheating because you lost, just MHO. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 A Bazooka at 13 meters? That is what infantry are for (which is why a nice arty bombardment is always in order). I get so I ignore Bazooka teams creeping about my perimeter when I play Germans, because they are so whimpy, but in house to house or if you are sitting right on top of them then they are a terror. Of course I am always gleeful when my lowly tank importent Americans take out a big tank with a rifle grenade because the German thought wimpy meant impotent. It must be luck or skill Abbott, or twenty turns of having them crawl up to a buttoned Panther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 "As for the amount of pts the person assaulting, attacking, or probing gets, I'd like to hear the others thoughts on if these pts are fair or not. Anyone?" ROFL! If your concept of fair is having the smae amount of points then play a meeting enagagement. The attacker,, in real situations per doctrine normally strives for a minimum of 3:1 odds. You get off light with a only 2:1. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 12, 2000 Author Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But it really just sounds to me like you think there was cheating because you lost, just MHO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, humble my ass. Banshee... ...it says right there in the manual on p.108 that for med. quality, only green or regular units can be purchased. So....obviously when I found out he had all vet units to my reg, I jumped to conclusions. Obviously, I was a little disturbed by this and wanted to question him further. Understand now...? It's not my fault that BTS didn't do a good job of reading over the manual to make sure it was error free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Oh, Abbott, can I PLEASE defend against you with those German troops? I would LOVE that OOB after this current battle. Nice job brewing up my Sherman, BTW, I never did see what killed it. I'm afraid this massacre is going to be your revenge for last game...I may be capitulating just as quickly. Seriously, Colonel, you could do a LOT worse with the random forces generator. -Scorp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Yeah, humble my ass. Banshee... ...it says right there in the manual on p.108 that for med. quality, only green or regular units can be purchased. So....obviously when I found out he had all vet units to my reg, I jumped to conclusions. Obviously, I was a little disturbed by this and wanted to question him further. Understand now...? It's not my fault that BTS didn't do a good job of reading over the manual to make sure it was error free. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You know if something like this happened to me and I happened to have actually read the manual. First thing I would have done is played a hotseat game against myself with the same settings (except let a human pick the forces) to see if the force levels could have been re-created. IMHO, STILL, it seems like your ego just can't accept being beat in a piddly little video game, so it MUST be someone cheated. Again I don't know you from nothin, the words your typing here (and in that new post you just put up, "riddled with mistakes" puuh-leeaseeee) just show me that you seem to be a very sore loser, again IMHO. This isn't a flame, i'm just saying this is a mountain out of a mole hill. Abbot won, you lost, game over. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 it would make total sense if player #2 has viewing access to all the parameters of the battle before he purchased his units... I think the attack/defend ratio is good, we are not striving for historical accuracy here, we are striving for a level playing feild Deadmarsh has a valid concern, player #1 could set up an assult or probe ratio without player #2 knowing, which could make for a lopsided battle and a poor ladder game match-up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Well one issue is the AI choosing forces, And a human buying them. If one player is really good, then when making the battle parameters give the attack a certain amount of a disadvantge, depending on what type of battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 The funny part of this whole thing was it was a great fight. Very enjoyable and tense for the greatest portion of the battle, tense for me anyway. It was a tough map a long ridge dominated the entire rear area of the map which the Col_ deftly placed his Panther on during the deployment, giving him a clear field of fire across almost the entire map. There was a second hill surrounded on two sides by forest, with a totally barren top about 250 meters across. The Panther fired on my troops the second turn which forced me to spend 10 turns repositioning my forces from the center of the map to behind the second hill for cover. Then over the top under fire from the Panther while crossing the open terrain. I made it into the woods with 2 platoons about 90% intact. The third Plt. Had two squads functional and a third split into teams leap frogging from cover to cover down the central road of the valley. I was able to gain some respite under cover of the woods, split a squad for recon, formed up an assault force of 2 Plt. (-) one Plt. full strength and a 30cal. HMG. I was able to form up at the edge of the wood about 75 meters from the first (large) VL, the flag setting squarely on a two-story building. Easing two teams forward, about 20 meters into some scattered trees all hell breaks lose. A German squad in the VL building another squad 60 meters off my recon’s teams right flank in a smaller building. One 6-man team goes down with 100% casualties, the other team 50%. I call for an artillery strike into the center of the village, 500 meters away. My attack from the treeline is making progress. Two turns has forced the squad and Plt. HQ from the two story building with heavy casualties. The other squad on my right flank is holding it’s own and hurting me. My 105’s whistle overhead and all hell breaks lose as my own barrage lands right on my assault force! I am shocked and take heavy casualties. To make matters worse a 75mm gun behind a wall 400 meters behind the VL opens up into the tree line as the Panther relocates and starts shelling my troops. My attack is faltering badly. I order a smoke screen fired and it lands beautifully 300 meters beyond the treeline blocking the Panther and the guns LOS. I begin reorganizing my heavily depleted squads as a flanking element makes it’s way through the woods at the base of the hill on my left. Two rifle squads and a Plt. HQ walk right into the flank of some German infantry as they are moving out of their foxholes towards the VL that I am close to capturing. I immediately hit two German squads hard and kill the German Art. Obs. with fire from my flanking element from 10 meters range. The bright spot came when I noticed the Panther leaving the ridge and driving down into the village to get a LOS from around the smoke screen. I finally felt I had a chance to get it. I started working two 6 man engineer teams and a bazooka team towards it from cover to cover and was able to knock it out losing my two engineer teams. With the Panther down my Sherman finally came out from behind the hill and shelled an 81mm mortar and held one small VL. I was at a loss when I was accused of cheating at the end of this battle. It seemed like a losing proposition to me the whole way. The Panther went down about turn 26 out of 30 turns. I didn’t believe I could win this fight. [This message has been edited by Abbott (edited 09-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 13, 2000 Author Share Posted September 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>With the Panther down my Sherman finally came out from behind the hill and shelled an 81mm mortar and held one small VL. I was at a loss when I was accused of cheating at the end of this battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Abbott, you know as well as I do that I never accused you of cheating. If you wanna sit here and try to exaggerate everything to gain support from all the 13 year olds here who just want to start a flame war, then go right ahead. I merely asked you why you had vet units and I had regulars since what it said in the book stated different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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