American National WW2 Memorial

[Aacooper]

Tonight I saw that WalMart has put displays up for donations to the (U.S.) National WW2 Memorial. Pres. Clinton dedicated the site in 1995, so they've been working on it without me noticing for some time. The official website is www.wwiimemorial.com and I encourage (American) CM players to find a way to contribute. It's unfortunate most veterans will have passed away before the memorial's complete.

By the way, you don't have to BUY anything at Wally's World, I'm not connected to that company!

[Doug Beman]

I agree that it's about time for an official memorial for this country's participation in WW2. Other countries and peoples suffered far worse, but that doesn't excuse our ignorance or dismissal of what our elders did. They gave up home, family and (for too many whose relatives had to receive the "official visit") life. What they did truly changed the world.

DjB

[John Hough]

Argh, not the damn ww2 memorial. I like the way that section of the Mall is laid out right now, thank you very much. And I dont want it ruined by that ugly memorial. I agree we should have a ww2 memorial, just not THAT one. And not there. So I encourage all cm players to lobby to get it moved. Alas, i'm not terribly hopeful of that happening...

-John Hough

[Rommel]

I think its ironic that such support was given for the vietnam memorial, which was protested greatly and had about 54,000 americans die, while the ww2 memorial is having to scrounge to get funding and acceptance for a war where over 409,000 americans died.

Personally i think the location while might not be perfect, it is important to go ahead and do this memorial while there are a good number of front line serving vetrans from that war still around.

[Aacooper]

I think the Vietnam memorial went up without any problem because everyone felt guilty about the things said about the soldiers. WW2 soldiers got ticker-tape parades and so on, so (the thinking goes) why create a memorial, when there wasn't one specifically for WW1? The Vietnam memorial is so powerful that I believe it contributed to the political desire for KIA-free wars.

I think I'll better be able to memorialize the exploits of my grandfathers when CM arrives! The sooner the better!

[Schrodi]

I think the Vietnam memorial was viewed by most people as an apologetic to the soldiers that were sent to a war that was not just wrong-but fundamentally wrong and immoral. However I’m sure it was also used by officials for the normal propaganda purposes, given the U.S. has never remotely come to terms with Vietnam in a official sense.

The case of WW2 is very different from almost any other war, even a lot hard core 60’s pacifists say you can have a moral argument for fighting in WW2. A lot of the vets that saw the camps likely would have though that defeating fascism was the least the could have done and now it’s just time to get on with life. Besides after the war there were still many people who remembered that warnings and pleadings for the U.S. to join the war earlier. Also the fact that the U.S. turned away many Jews fleeing Germany. I think also, another little morsel that is more completely down the memory hole now it Japans frankness with the U.S. in their application of a U.S. style Monroe doctrine in SE Asia. The U.S. could have easily at least tried to negotiate a situation(that they later gave Japan to stall Asian communism) where Japan could economically dominate SE Asia. Instead the U.S. and UK shut off a lot of markets to Japan after years of preaching free trade etc. (remember roaring 20’s UK and US where telling everyone the same thing as today until Japan started making better and cheeper stuff[even then] and like the 80’s they just closer the door and protected domestic producers. Also resurgent Germany changed their minds, except Hitler understood the rules outright and always looked at rearming.)

Of course many complexities arise...

[Heavy Bomber]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aacooper:

Tonight I saw that WalMart has put displays up for donations to the (U.S.) National WW2 Memorial. so they've been working on it without me noticing for some time. The official website is www.wwiimemorial.com and I encourage (American) CM players to find a way to contribute. It's unfortunate most veterans will have passed away before the memorial's complete.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been donating for the past three years. They have not even started building the LONG OVERDUE Memorial yet. All 100 Million has to be collected before they can break ground.

My two grandfathers, and my wife's two grandfathers all served in WW2. We have both lost one each. I just pray to God at least one of them is still alive to potentialy see it completed. Or anyone who served their country during those years that they were needed. The memorial is for everyone who served in any capacity, men & women! Not just front line troops.

While you wait for the game check out this site

www.wwiimemorial.com while your there, donate! if you think about it, spending the same amount os you spent to pre-order (or what you will spend for the full version) would be a small price to pay for the freedom to play a game, based on just a piece of what it took to fight the war.

Pass on the info about the site… Lets get the word out as best we can. Please!

[This message has been edited by Heavy Bomber (edited 02-05-2000).]

[Fionn]

They're putting a memorial up in a mall ? Does that strike anyone else as less than dignified ?

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

They're putting a memorial up in a mall ? Does that strike anyone else as less than dignified ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I suppose I'll just fall into the trap if you were only teasing, Fionn. But the Mall cited in this case is the big long park in Wash. DC that has the Lincoln Memorial at one end, and other sites of interest like the Washington Monument and Reflecting Pool within it.

My view of where to build it? Well, if the Mall already includes memorials for the Korean & Vietnam wars, then it's really hard to argue that the WW2 memorial should be "somewhere else", so it should be at the Mall. The fair thing to debate is whether or not its planned design is appropriate. I've been more ambivalent on that note.

[Fionn]

Ah, makes more sense now... I had forgotten that "The Mall" is a geographic entity in America and not just a reference to what you call shopping malls.

Personally speaking I think you'd do better to provide better health care to the veterans (especially the Gulf War veterans). From the evidence I've seen it seems to me that there is quite conclusive proof that certain susceptible individuals were harmed by one of three agents:

1. Fuel etc mixed in with the water they were drinking (due to using the same trucks to transport fuel as transported water on different trips).

2. Cocktail of drugs used to protect from bio and chem weaps.

3. DU fallout.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Ah, makes more sense now... I had forgotten that "The Mall" is a geographic entity in America and not just a reference to what you call shopping malls.

Personally speaking I think you'd do better to provide better health care to the veterans (especially the Gulf War veterans). From the evidence I've seen it seems to me that there is quite conclusive proof that certain susceptible individuals were harmed by one of three agents:

1. Fuel etc mixed in with the water they were drinking (due to using the same trucks to transport fuel as transported water on different trips).

2. Cocktail of drugs used to protect from bio and chem weaps.

3. DU fallout.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Goes far deeper than that, Fionn.

On the first point, mixing up a water truck with a fuel truck is a hazmat (hazardous materials) SNAFU that should give due compensation to those proven to be affected. But that's hardly anything to be considered as insidious. Same way with the other points, too, in that affected Gulf War veterans are due in treatment and compensation, but you'll have to be more definitive about DU "fallout". Artillery rounds? The handling of DU tank ammo? In this day of weapon lethality, it might well be the case that any tactical battle will involve some "DU fallout."

Consider this added situation, though. With all of the lawsuits being foisted in the US against tabacco companies, the Veterans Administration won't support veterans who would pursue similar lawsuits against Big Tabacco & the US Govt. combined. The VA does this with Clinton's blessing; that's right, the supposed big enemy of tabacco.

Considering that cigarettes were doled out to soldiers as a standard ration from WW2 through Vietnam (thus the term "Smoke 'em if you got 'em), wouldn't it then stand that the US Govt. is thus liable with the cig makers? The US Govt. won't likely own up to potential responsibility in this case, because we would be talking about MILLIONS of affected veterans who would be due, rather than few thousands of the Gulf War affected by your noted items. In other words, it's OK for civilians to be aided by the federal/state governments in their suits against cigarette makers, but not veterans.

Also consider that 5,000--10,000 active duty US personnel (usually the enlisted ranks) are still presently on food stamps, due to having families to support too. That's less excusable to me than the mishaps of the Gulf War, because that's been seen to happen for years.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Hough:

Argh, not the damn ww2 memorial. I like the way that section of the Mall is laid out right now, thank you very much. And I dont want it ruined by that ugly memorial. I agree we should have a ww2 memorial, just not THAT one. And not there.

-John Hough<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH PLEASE! Apparently, you don't give a DAMN about what our WWII veterans did for this planet. These young boys did nothing more than to save our planet from the tyranny of Nazi Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire, and you say "ugly memorial"!

And what's wrong with the location? Are you against change?? One of the most visited sites in the world is Washington, D.C. and you're against erecting a new attraction/memorial? So what if the amusement parks never built a new ride? Would you go back to them? WWII was an event that changed the world forever and you're not willing to give its dues in a memorial? Com'on! Give me a break!

------------------

"I want you to remember that...no bastard ever won a war...by dying for his country...He won it...by making the other poor dumb bastard...die for his country."--George S. Patton

[A Arabian]

Re. efficient use of 'funds'

I think the error in thought here is that we must choose between honoring past soldiers and keeping our promises to current ones. I'm pretty sure we can cough up enough to do both right, and it bugs me that we have to consider throwing either to the wolves...

Oh, and my two cents - I think the design is good. I just hope I can visit it without getting mugged. It is DC, after all...

[Spook]

A Arabian:

I guess you have the right thought in another way. What Fionn & I were talking about is more appropriately linked to "government liability" for veterans, and isn't really connected to donations for the WW2 memorial. People who are freely donating to the memorial should be thanked, instead of lectured on their "priorities".

But yes, in the ideallic world, the US Govt. would have more than sufficient funds for both the memorial and proper veterans compensation. The trick is to get both the President & Congress to be more efficient (less pork) in their spending games.

[dalem]

I've always kinda viewed the whole planet as our WWII memorial. Things would look awfully different were it not for the actions of that generation of Americans.

-dalem

[John Hough]

DO NOT put words in my mouth, Mr. Blood 'n' Guts. Did I say I don't care about what our ww2 vets have done? No. I said we ought have a WW2 veterans memorial. However, I VERY MUCH dislike the current design of the memorial, and dislike even more messing up the Lincoln Memorial/Reflecting pool area.

These young boys were forced to kill and die by our country, our political leaders, and ultimately, Hitler's aggression, and I think they should be memorialized for that. I don't much like the semantics of calling the memorial the 'National World War II Memorial', and would rather have it be, like the Vietnam memorial, dedicated to the veterans. I'd rather they made it something that beatifies the location it's put in and memorializes the veterans of that war with a proper stately dignity.

This city I live in IS NOT an amusement park. You do not 'upgrade' memorials that are behind the times, or plan new ones based on the visitors you can draw in. And you should not mess up things which have been around for a hundred years to stick in a 'new ride'.

-John Hough

"All I know is that those who are going to be killed/ aren't those who preside on Capitol Hill./ I told him, 'Don't fill the front lines of their war./ Those assholes aren't worth dying for." Ani DiFranco, "Roll With It"

[Major Tom]

I don't know if nation's need official national memorials. Here in Canada just about every small town has a memorial to the two World Wars as well as Korea, either though a bell tower or a statue in a park. Each of these memorobelia have the names of all those who died during both of these conflicts. Congregating all of these monuments in one place also segregates it from the rest of society. You can't drive through a single large town in Canada without seeing some sort of military memorial. It constantly reminds you of their sacrifice. (this is not to say that the average American town doesn't have a monument, just that money for reminders can be better spend on the local level).

Also, I don't think that it is a private corporation's right to create such a monument. There is always a catch. Either it is PR for them being so gratious in accepting other people's money to build this thing, or, they get full control over how and what it looks like. The government, representing the people sent these men and women off to war, it is their duty to create such a monuemnt. Private corporations building monuments doesn't sound too democratic to me, and wasn't democracy what these men and women died for?

PS. I think that the fatal casualty number for America during World War two was just under 300,000. 600,000 Americans died during the American Civil War, more than all American casualties during all other wars combined.

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 02-07-2000).]

[werfer]

Yes Major Tom, you said it perfectly about the 300,000 casualties in WW2 and 600,000 casualties in the North American civil war, in fact 600,000 kia's was more than the USA had lost in ALL of its previous wars combined!.

I still think that if the WW2 vets had rose a stink over their lack of recognition that there would have been memorials put up maybe even during the second world war. But alas, the WW2 vets just thought that they were doing their duty for peace and for mankind, without any hopes (or thoughts) of being remembered for eternity.

My father served in the US 8th AF in Europe and spent 9 months in a German pow camp after being shot down and he still doesn't seem anxious for the memorials and other things that some people are requesting for the WW2 vets to have their "fair due", with some of them just happy to get home alive!.

thanks

werfer