Buzzer Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 This is a bit in the same line as Slapdragon's "Shermans seem overpriced" thread... Played a PBEM game where I was German, and had a cpl of Hetzers in my force. My opponent with his M4A3s couldnt take out the Hetzers at all in head-on shots(due to the sloped armor), and all his shots ricocheted(right speeling?) away...Of course I didnt tell him to check gun vs armor chart The map made it very difficult/impossible to outflank the Hetzers, and soon both his Shermans were burning... So, is the Sherman too expensive or is the Hetzer too cheap? I know the Hetzer was relatively "cheap" to produce/had its limitations in RL: based on the Panzer38(t) chassis, it had limited gun traversal, was slow, had tight compartment etc... But it was also one of the most advanced tank destroyers in WW2 (according to the book im reading ), with its (relative) light weight, small size, gun with improved recoil mecanism, widedned 38(t)chassis, widened and reinforced tracks, enhanced armor etc... In CM a Hetzer costs 75 points while a ShermanM4A3(75)W for instance costs 152 (using a list here, which might be incorrect, but I guess the relative prices are correct). Should a tank which CANNOT TAKE OUT the Hetzer AT ALL in a HO shot be twice as expensive? I find this a bit odd... I know the Sherman has other advantages but a 10 Hetzers vs 5 Shermans seem a bit unfair to me... Summarization:Is the Hetzer too cheap? (Yes I did search on "Hetzer", "cost" etc... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Hi, I don´t think the Hetzer is under priced... If the map you played on was more open, with is slow ROF, weak side/rear armor and turretless tank, the Hetzer would be cooked... You had the right tank (TD) for the job giving it the map it was... If I´m a Commander of a TankDestroyer I will position it, in such a manner that I couldn´t be outflanked ( or at least i could make a fast exit from the battle ). João [This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 09-22-2000).] [This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 09-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 IMHO, the Hetzer is a peice of crap. Over-priced, no. Look at the ROF, the quality of the armor, the lack of a decent MG, the ultra-thin flank and rear armor and the moderate speed and mid-range gun. No, it can be a good 'ambusher'. But it is not over priced IMO. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I like the Hetzer a lot, but I am not sure it is over priced. In an open field contest I would agree. In the fog it ROF is against it. [This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 09-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Read some data about the Hetzer and you'll see that it's made of second hand materials compared to the Panther, Tigers etc. The Hetzer was a brilliant cheap design, one of my favourites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by howardb: Read some data about the Hetzer and you'll see that it's made of second hand materials compared to the Panther, Tigers etc. The Hetzer was a brilliant cheap design, one of my favourites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Hetzer's armor quality on the glacis was actualy better then the Tiger II's at 240BHN compared to the Tiger II's 220BHN Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 The Swiss considered the Hetzer an excellent piece of equipment and purchased many at the conclusion of the war and put them into service for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I have only read one first person account from a member of a crewman of a Hetzer. I lost the link long ago, but he was amazed and slightly amused that people today seemed to like and admire the Hetzer so much. He moved from a Stug (I think) into a Hetzer and was the loader. He went on and on about how cramped it was, about how their vision was nil when it was buttoned, how unreliable it was and how he had to reach over the gun to load it on the other side. The gun used in the Hetzer was made so that loader was supposed to be seated on the right side. You will notice when you look at a Hetzer that there is no way a loader could sit on the right, so he had to sit on the left and reach across the gun, to load it the get the Hell out of the way again before it fired. I believe he also said that the ammo was stowed in a very inconvenient place. He said all the crews hated them. He was quite amused that it was such a popular tank for modelers and gamers. Just relating what I remember him writing. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombardier Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: IMHO, the Hetzer is a peice of crap. Over-priced, no. Look at the ROF, the quality of the armor, the lack of a decent MG, the ultra-thin flank and rear armor and the moderate speed and mid-range gun. No, it can be a good 'ambusher'. But it is not over priced IMO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Peice of crap may be a bit harsh. As you said yourself, It makes a good ambusher. With it's small sihouette and a crack crew you, more often than not ,get the first kill shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Peice of crap may be a bit harsh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hense the 'smiley' I used. But more aptly, it was a peice of crap with good armor slope and a gun with pretty good penetration. How's that? The truth be told the Hetzer was one of my favorites from years of miniature wargaming. I was quite surpised when I found out how poorly it was designed (in some aspects) and manufactured (in almost all aspects). But when you can crank out 2-3 Hetzers for each PzIV and the Allies are closing in on Berlin, which tank would you build? Kinda like my old saying. The Allies did not defeat Germany, Detroit did. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schugger Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I do not think it is a good idea to rate the Hetzer as underprized just because they are superior to Shermans (75)in tank duells. The Hetzer is good in it's role as tank destroyer but miserable in a support role, while the Sherman is a good allround tank. Moving the Sherms into a head-to-head contest with Hetzers is not a brilliant tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Crap or not the Hetzer was Germany's most successful TD design. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 I'm not familiar with armor quality but I'm familiar with economics and if you can make obsolete equipment do the job with simple modifications you'll save resources. The Hetzer is based on the PzKpfw 38(t) chassis which was almost useless by '44, made into a cheap and efficient tank destoyer. That alone makes the Hetzer a very good design. From: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pzcz.htm#hetzer "For example Hetzer could knock out Soviet T-34/85 at a distance of 700m by hitting the frontal armor, while Soviet T-34/85 could knock out Hetzer at a distance of 400m by hitting the frontal armor. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Remember some of the Hetzer's problems came about because the original design was to have used the main gun mounted directly in the front plate, strengthening the front and,by eliminating the recoil mechanism, simplifying things inside considerably, no doubt making it easier to load. Unfortuneately there was many more problems keeping the optics intact then they had forseen and so they went ahead with the conventional version. The chassis itself was extremely reliable and there were big plans for it, I have a picture here of a prototype "light weapons carriage" with the widened Hetzer chassis, wide tracks, and sloped armour looking like a minature Panther, mounting a turrent with the long 8.8cm gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 A Hetzer in defense on an open board is worth almost as much as a Panther. You can park its butt against a wall and hide, then take down a lot of tanks with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzer Posted September 24, 2000 Author Share Posted September 24, 2000 Howardb...I think I did refer to some data about the Hetzer, didnt I? Read the post before...etc... Even though it was made of second hand material (like all the Marders) it was, quote: "one of the most advanced tank destroyers during the war... *Improved recoil mecanism on gun... *Modified P38(t)chassis...widened.. *Widened and reinforced tracks... *Enhanced armor... *Small size... *remotely controlled machine gun... w/360 degree rotation...etc" Have to agreee with Schugger though, but as I said, in CM maps/as RL its not always easy to outflank each other. S.Clinton(think I said UNDERpriced, not OVERpriced ), also heard err...read the Hetzer wasnt very popular by its crew, but that shouldnt make it chaper or...? To me it just seems like a damn good (though unpopular) and cheap tank destroyer... Anyway, I havent tried it that much vs allied tanks, so the responses are appreciated, as always in here Maybe I should try some jabos against it... [This message has been edited by Buzzer (edited 09-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 Buzzer: Of course you had good info in your post but what I tried to say is that the Hetzer is cheap for a justified reason. With all the effort BTS has made making this game realistic I think they should stick by their unit costs because the Hetzer was cheap. Now whether the folks operating the different afv's liked them or not is not really an issue to me, if they were effective is. Take the MG34 vs MG42, the MG42 was a much better MG than the 34 and it was cheaper to make. Should the 42 cost more or less in the game? Are we simulating reality or gameplay, perhaps something in between? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: A Hetzer in defense on an open board is worth almost as much as a Panther. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> On the other hand a Hetzer in offence is just an incompetent piece of crap. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: I have only read one first person account from a member of a crewman of a Hetzer. I lost the link long ago, but he was amazed and slightly amused that people today seemed to like and admire the Hetzer so much. He moved from a Stug (I think) into a Hetzer and was the loader. He went on and on about how cramped it was, about how their vision was nil when it was buttoned, how unreliable it was and how he had to reach over the gun to load it on the other side. The gun used in the Hetzer was made so that loader was supposed to be seated on the right side. You will notice when you look at a Hetzer that there is no way a loader could sit on the right, so he had to sit on the left and reach across the gun, to load it the get the Hell out of the way again before it fired. I believe he also said that the ammo was stowed in a very inconvenient place. He said all the crews hated them. He was quite amused that it was such a popular tank for modelers and gamers. Just relating what I remember him writing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Hetzer was an astounding succes from a production viewpoint. Using an otherwise useless tank-chasses, producing it in factories that could not handle larger vehicles and still comming up with a mobile and reasonably well protected 7,5cm L/48 gun. And that is the point: The Hetzer was essentially a self-propelled anti-tank gun. Because it could be produced in large numbers it was possible to issue more infantry anti-tank battalions with StuG/Jagdpanzer, thus giving the infantry and Volksgrenadier divisions a company of Hetzers, giving them a considerably increase in defensive and offensive capability. Yes, the Hetzer was unreliable (too heavy for the mechanical bits), uncomfortable for the loader, problematic for the commander (no cupola, smoke getting into his optics) and a sitting duck if caught in the open. Not much fun in moving down from a StuG III to this critter, but helluva improvement from an unarmoured tractor pulling a 1.5ton gun with virtually no crew protection. Someone mentioned that the Hetzer was crap in the offense. I cannot say how it works out in CM, but in the real world the Hetzer was succesfull. Used correctly as an infantry support vehicle, giving covering fire and taking out MG-nests and strong points, the Hetzer worked well. But it is not a tank and it does not have the same level of protection as the StuG III, Jagdpanzer IV or a Jagdpanther and should be used accordingly. Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 I think a person's favor or disfavor with the Hetzer has to do a lot with their experience with them in CM. I have been on the receiving and giving end of the Hetzer, and, (very important) if it is well-positioned, a Hetzer is worth 10 times its cost. On the other hand, I have had a Hetzer taken out by a Jeep armed with a .50 browning that snuck behind it. It does have a relatively slow ROF, and its armor is prone to spalling, but I like the Hetzer when it can be positioned well. ------------------ CrapGame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 Astounding success from a production viewpoint probably sums it up, considering they were built in the worst time of the war for German (Czech) industry. 2584 built and production only started in March 1944, when production of everything else was starting to go to hell due to the bombing of the factories and transportation system, plus shortages of manpower, fuel, and raw material. And for the cost of the thing it's a hell of an update on a Marder. I'm sure the Germans wondered after the war what would have happened if they would have concentrated on Panthers, Jagdpanthers, and Hetzers instead of Tigers, King Tigers, and Jagdtigers. They could probably have built, what, 10 Hetzers for each King Tiger? AND everybody could drive on the same bridges and railway cars as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrapGame: I like the Hetzer when it can be positioned well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The only experience I've had with a Hetzer was in a current PBEM game. I found a nice ambush position for it, but it missed the first shot and then succumbed to that infamous "gun hit" occurence... ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 I think the price of the Hetzer is correct. I purchased one for a game against KwazyDog and it did just fine. BUT, and it is a big BUT, I had to keep that thing in a limited and very protected role throughout the game. I parked it on the side of a hill with infantry advancing on all sides and in front of it. Meanwhile I had my PzIVs driving all over the place chewing up his defenses. If I had done that with the Hetzer I would probably have lost it. In a game I am playing now my opponant has a Hetzer. Too soon to know how I will do against it, but I have already caused it to retreat from an attempted flanking move. It was going to advance on my M36 Jackson frontally, which would be tough for me to defeat. However, in doing so he had to put the Hetzer in a rather questionable position. I had a Bazooka team try and remove any doubt about this , but the guy missed 4 shots. HOWEVER, the player realized that he had little choice but to pull back. If he spun to take out my Bazooka anybody with so much as a spitball would be able to take him out because his flank would be exposed to all sorts of things on my side of the line (including the M36). So he put it in reverse and got it out of LOS to everything of mine. So far his Hetzer has only been an annoyance that I have to keep my eye on. I am not worried about it too much, and therefore I think the cheap price is reflected well here. Just some examples of Hetzer limitations! Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 24, 2000 Share Posted September 24, 2000 They're both very slow (Hart & Hart list road speed as 26kph, xcountry as 15kph) and (mentioned by George Forty, IIRC) it was very front-heavy, making it a touchy vehicle to drive. Granted, being unstable is not modeled in CM, but I don't think it's underpriced as it is. My reasons are the same as those given by others. That being said, in most instances it was made for (defense) I think it's an excellent vehicle. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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