Cuchulainn Posted October 19, 2000 Author Share Posted October 19, 2000 Aren't beret's French??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuchulainn Posted October 19, 2000 Author Share Posted October 19, 2000 Double posting.... (again) [This message has been edited by Cuchulainn (edited 10-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 There seems a bit of a fraternity in terms of jump qualified personnel.. I've only touched the surface of it though. I personally don't think that jumping repeatedly out of an aircraft is all that easy. I've earned my wings by defying death the requisite five times. I disliked the experience so much that by jump three, I vowed never to jump again without good reason. Not being in an airborne unit, this wasn't going to be a problem anyway! Sounds a bit dramatic, I know, but think of it this way. (1) You're 2000 feet up, and even though you know you've a parachute on your back, your subconscious is telling you "There's nothing there but ground a looooong way down..." You have to over-ride this instinct. Actually, the second jump seems to be the worst, as you know what's coming! (2) If the 'chute opens, you've still a good chance of physical injury. My class had a broken arm and two sprained ankles. (3) People do die doing this. The next class after mine, an Irish infantryman suffered a malfunction in his 'chute which resulted in his death on the first jump. Incidently, my first jump had the same malfunction in my 'chute but it was caught at the final check, after I had put it on. I found this rather sobering. The difference between this and the regular hazards of other training (Such as getting sliced by a tank turret), IMO, is that you are voluntarily putting yourself in un-neccessary danger above your natural instincts. So if the clerk has qualified, he's not just a clerk. He's a clerk who has faced up to what I found to be a rather terrifying ordeal, and I deem him worthy of my respect. And this is even beyond the fact that airbone missions by nature are hazardous. (Lightly armed and supplied, put far into harm's way). I see what you say about not wearing the beret outside of the unit (That's what the wings are for anyway!), but unit pride can most easily be manifested around something patently obvious that can be seen at a distance. The maroon beret is the most accepted way of doing this, and I think it's a fair compromise to allow a few 'legs' to wear them in order to maintain some unit conformity. Note, above is my personal opinion.. I wouldn't be surprised if folks like Airborne may have another view on the matter. Heck, maybe he even likes jumping! Personally, I won't even get on a roller-coaster. Finally, might I point out that in the British forces, where there's a whole crowd of different beret colors and cap badges, the whole idea seems rather well received? NTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pzvg: (Pzvg is nervous about the direction America has taken,read your history on the Roman Empire to know why) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ro...man Emp..ire??? Did Mussolini have anything to do with it?? I never liked that guy anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 Trooper, I agree with you. The first jump was easy. The rest weren't. My plt. leader in jump school was a Marine Captain. Broke his leg on our 1st or 2nd jump. Ouch....2000ft? Rarely jumped that high. Most were at 800-1000 ft. Half at night. ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinchillaPimp Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I am kinda curious, When and what country started this style of headgear? Anyone know? How long has this cap been in use here in the USA?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I am correct, the US Army SF had been unoffically wearing the Green Beret for years although US military doctrine prohibited it. "No foreign-type headgear." IIRC JFK had a stiffy for the GB's and made it offical for em in the '60s... UPDATE: Got curious, did some checking found this. Not earth-shattering, but interesting reading nonetheless. http://www.friends-of-sof.org/yoda/greenberet.html Rick [This message has been edited by ChinchillaPimp (edited 10-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 Here's the Army version of the story: WASHINGTON (Army News Service, Oct. 18, 2000) - Black berets, now worn by soldiers in elite Ranger units, will become the Army's standard headgear beginning next June, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric K. Shinseki announced Tuesday. "It is time for the entire Army to accept the challenge of excellence that has so long been a hallmark of our special operations and airborne units," Shinseki said. Adopting the berets will be "another step toward achieving the capabilities of the objective force" of Army transformation, he said. Soldiers will begin wearing the beret June 14, "the first Army birthday of the new millennium," Shinseki said. All soldiers, regardless of rank or branch, will wear the beret if they meet the Army standard, Shinseki said. He added that Sgt. Maj. of the Army Jack L. Tilley would come up with a plan to establish the standard and implement the change. "Putting that beret on will become part of a soldier's rite of passage," Tilley said. "I've got to tell you I was genuinely excited when I first heard about it," Tilley said of the beret idea. "I think it will do a lot for soldiers' pride and image. It will probably be something of a shock when soldiers first hear about it, but it's something we need as the Army moves through transformation." Shinseki made the beret announcement at the end of his speech to more than 2,000 members of the Association of the United States Army Oct. 17 at the organization's annual meeting in Washington, D.C. Along with Army transformation, he discussed readiness and personnel issues such as reducing "turbulence" among the force. Frequent deployments and too much time away from families cause turbulence, Shinseki explained Monday as he announced a number of measures aimed at improving stability. He said the Army will try to limit short-notice taskings and attempt to provide change-of-station orders to soldiers one year in advance. He also would like to see soldiers with school-age children move only during the summer months, he said. "We are not going to place (soldiers) in the position of having to choose between an Army they love and the well-being of the family they love," Shinseki said Tuesday. "Soldiering is an affair of the heart," Shinseki said as he began to explain the symbolism of the beret. He officiated a change-of-command ceremony last week for the Army's Special Operations Command. He said as he watched the troops, he was reminded that the agility, deployability and adaptability of those soldiers was symbolized by their berets. "Starting next June, the black beret will be symbolic of our commitment to transform this magnificent Army into a new force - a strategically responsive force for the 21st century," Shinseki said. "It will be a symbol of unity, a symbol of Army excellence, a symbol of our values." Shinseki said special operations and airborne soldiers will continue to wear their distinctive berets. Soldiers in airborne units wear maroon berets and Special Forces wear green berets. Soldiers in Ranger units now wear black berets while in their dress uniforms and also when in garrison wearing the Battle Dress Uniform. They wear the BDU soft cap or kevlar helmet in the field. "The black beret has a lot of tradition," said Maj. Gary Kolb, a spokesman for the Army's Special Operations Command. "It's something they Rangers) wear with pride... They hold it in high esteem." Kolb said the Special Operations Command supports Shinseki's decision to share the black berets with the rest of the Army. He said Rangers are anxious to see how the policy will be implemented. ------------------------------ So my question becomes what do the soldiers who "don't meet the standard" wear? The old patrol cap? Will that become a mark of shame? We will have formations of troops in black berets with the fatboys and profiles in the back in their PCs. It will probably become another reportable statistic. "sir, bravo company report 88% black beret qualified soldiers!" "you're fired." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer: Actually, check out those Austrian uniforms from the Napoleonic war! Jet black appart from smatterings of Silver trim, sharp! PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Precursor to the SS uniforms of WWII I believe. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if whoever was responsible for designing the SS uniforms had in mind those Prussian Kings German Legion ones at the time. Does anyone have any information on this? Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 "Turbulence" ? Whaaa? Is he talking about men or planes? Jeez whatta bunch of hopeless sheep, I got an idea, give em the uniform, put 'em on half pay and send their whiney wimp asses home, then outsource our defense commitment to the private sector (I can always stand to make more money) ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 Peacetime regulations, I'm afraid.. We couldn't jump out at 'operational' altitudes for safety reasons. As it was, we thought that 2000 ft was too low. We figured we wouldn't have had enough time to deploy the reserve if it was required. (Taking into account time needed to pull yourself together in order to go through the actions!) The other thing was that it was a Dutch course, and it seems that Dutch law prohibits foreigners from jumping out of aircraft at night. No, I don't understand it either. (I personally think it's something to do with the Germans), so we actually got it easy. Daylight jumps only. I know, it's a wuss version, but not my choice. NTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Airborne: Trooper, I agree with you. The first jump was easy. The rest weren't. My plt. leader in jump school was a Marine Captain. Broke his leg on our 1st or 2nd jump. Ouch....2000ft? Rarely jumped that high. Most were at 800-1000 ft. Half at night. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Back in 1965 when I went through Jump School at Ft. Benning, GA, we jumped at 1250 feet. Do paratroopers still wear boots with their dress uniforms? ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GreasyPig: The thing that gets me is this whole break from tradition... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH TRADITION? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Even "traditions" change. Scouts used to wear the black beret but they were taken away in the 70's (IIRC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trooper: There seems a bit of a fraternity in terms of jump qualified personnel.. I've only touched the surface of it though. I personally don't think that jumping repeatedly out of an aircraft is all that easy. I've earned my wings by defying death the requisite five times. I disliked the experience so much that by jump three, I vowed never to jump again without good reason. Not being in an airborne unit, this wasn't going to be a problem anyway! Sounds a bit dramatic, I know, but think of it this way. (1) You're 2000 feet up, and even though you know you've a parachute on your back, your subconscious is telling you "There's nothing there but ground a looooong way down..." You have to over-ride this instinct. Actually, the second jump seems to be the worst, as you know what's coming! (2) If the 'chute opens, you've still a good chance of physical injury. My class had a broken arm and two sprained ankles. (3) People do die doing this. The next class after mine, an Irish infantryman suffered a malfunction in his 'chute which resulted in his death on the first jump. Incidently, my first jump had the same malfunction in my 'chute but it was caught at the final check, after I had put it on. I found this rather sobering. The difference between this and the regular hazards of other training (Such as getting sliced by a tank turret), IMO, is that you are voluntarily putting yourself in un-neccessary danger above your natural instincts. So if the clerk has qualified, he's not just a clerk. He's a clerk who has faced up to what I found to be a rather terrifying ordeal, and I deem him worthy of my respect. And this is even beyond the fact that airbone missions by nature are hazardous. (Lightly armed and supplied, put far into harm's way). I see what you say about not wearing the beret outside of the unit (That's what the wings are for anyway!), but unit pride can most easily be manifested around something patently obvious that can be seen at a distance. The maroon beret is the most accepted way of doing this, and I think it's a fair compromise to allow a few 'legs' to wear them in order to maintain some unit conformity. Note, above is my personal opinion.. I wouldn't be surprised if folks like Airborne may have another view on the matter. Heck, maybe he even likes jumping! Personally, I won't even get on a roller-coaster. Finally, might I point out that in the British forces, where there's a whole crowd of different beret colors and cap badges, the whole idea seems rather well received? NTM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I recall watching a special on airborne troops (History channel, TLC or somehting) and seeing a modern day paratrooper bragging that he had X number of jumps (it was pretty high, but I can't remember exactly what) and then a WWII vet said somehting to the effect, "That's nice, I only jumped six time. Normandy..." and went on to name the only times he jumped. Put that modern soldier in his place. Anyways, an "airborne" PAC clerk is never going to have the same respect as a "leg" infantry man or combat engineer from me. No matter how may jumps he has made. Cav ------------------ "Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, 'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade "AS far as Steve and BTS (mostly Steve) are concerned, you are either a CM die-hard supporter, or you are dirt. If you question the game, implementation, or data models they used, you are some kind of neo-Nazi wanna-be, and become an open target for CavScout, SlippySlapDragon, and all the other sycophants who hang on Steves every word."-- Jeff Heidman [comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: Do paratroopers still wear boots with their dress uniforms? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When in an airborne unit, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted October 19, 2000 Share Posted October 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: Anyways, an "airborne" PAC clerk is never going to have the same respect as a "leg" infantry man or combat engineer from me. No matter how may jumps he has made. Cav <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I obviously aren't about to try to argue you into respecting something, given that it's such a subjective subject. I will say that I note you haven't stated if you have tried jumping or not. If you have, and thought it no big deal..well, you're a better man than I, and quite supported in your position. All I know is that I, personally, found the whole thing rather..challenging.., and I can but assume that anyone else with wings has met and surmounted that challenge. A matter of subjective opinion, as I said. I obviously aren't going to argue 'combat jumps' vs 'number of jumps'! NTM ------------------ The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trooper: I will say that I note you haven't stated if you have tried jumping or not. If you have, and thought it no big deal..well, you're a better man than I, and quite supported in your position. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You couldn't pay me enough to jump out of a perfectly working plane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibucephalus Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 Its funny, the green beret is the standard headdress in the Canadian army. We're often mistaken for commandos by foreigners, until they see us in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elric Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 >Turbulence" ? Whaaa? Is he talking about >men or planes? Jeez whatta bunch of >hopeless sheep, I got an idea, give em the >uniform, put 'em on half pay and send their >whiney wimp asses home, then outsource our >defense commitment to the private sector (I c>an always stand to make more money) Ah the armchair general speaks And to the guy who said cant respect the clerk no matter what ---- I was always under the impression LEGS and such had NO OTHER CHOICES when the upped - hey you choose your MOS heheh Seriously its all one team and your all cogs in the machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elric: And to the guy who said cant respect the clerk no matter what ---- I was always under the impression LEGS and such had NO OTHER CHOICES when the upped - hey you choose your MOS heheh Seriously its all one team and your all cogs in the machine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hardly. There is a reason 10% of a division takes 70% of the casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elric Posted October 20, 2000 Share Posted October 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: Hardly. There is a reason 10% of a division takes 70% of the casualties.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Because THEYRE THERE - but WHY are they there? Always Elric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 From Trooper... Finally, might I point out that in the British forces, where there's a whole crowd of different beret colors and cap badges, the whole idea seems rather well received? ------------------------------------ What an understatement that is! It seems like every regiment in the British Army has its own uniform. I almost tripped over a curbside the day I saw a soldier in red CherryPickers standing next to an Irish Fusilier (Guards?) musician wearing an orange skirt, errrr...., kilt! I must admit, the regimental uniforms do look nice on parade - now I know why Humbrol has so many shades! The U.S. Army might not do badly by keeping the standard uniform and using assorted "regimental" headgear, based on traditions inherent to the regiments or divisions. Such as the Cav using the frontier cavalry hats, specialty troops with the various berets, and perhaps National Guard units with "local" flavor! (Now that ough to be a real trip...) I'm all in favor of leaving the black berets to the Rangers. They may look sharp on a group of Gung-Ho troops who have sweated hard to earn them, but hand them out to the whole army and you'll soon see why the Ike jacket went out of fashion! Looked great on SGT Rock, not so hot on Jackie Gleason. If you've ever seen some of the mediocre war movies from the 60's and 70's about Vietnam, you'll probably quickly realize there are a lot of people who don't have the faintest idea how to wear a military beret. My favorite is the 'eraser look', centered on the head and pulled straight up. The Army's got recruitment problems, officer losses, equipment and logistics shortages - we can fix it - change the hats! (Sorry, I just couldn't resist that... ..the name Beetle Bailey keeps popping into mind.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 There is nothing better than free-falling for 20 seconds on a clear day....NOTHING. Someone mentioned the first one was the easiest. Well it makes me chuckle to think of all those times the JM almost had to throw someone off the plane. Thanks for bringing that memory back, I needed to laugh. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 Marty's post gave me an image of the Tennessee National Guard wearing coonskin hats. I think historically the military has always changed uniforms for moral purposes -- think of the civil war zouaves (or however that's spelled). I believe that the west point uniform featured spiked German-style helmets for a brief time after the Franco-Prussian war, presumably in imitation of the militarily efficient Prussian army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silesian-jaeger Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cuchulainn: CNN Story: U.S. Army to wear black berets October 17, 2000 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well now their hats will match their gee-strings at least. ------------------ "In one (German) town, Private Honey stood next to an elderly German man and a ten-year-old boy. As the Shermans and brand-new Pershings rumbled by the boy said,'Deutsches Panzer lind besser.' Honey looked down at him and asked,'If German tanks are better, why aren't they here?' " quote from Stephen E. Ambrose, "Citizen Soldiers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 Erlic,elric, whatever thehellyourweirdnameis, This "armchair general" will put his DD214 up for comment anytime, how 'bout you Remf? ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts