Guest Big Time Software Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 I'd have to agree with Major Tom. If we do something that you guys aren't expecting (like the redone smoke), then it deserves to be mentioned. But simply saying x model was finished today isn't really usefull. It is something you guys expect and a running list will not tell you any more about how close we are to release. So needless to say I won't be going down the Developer Diary route like some others. Not a bad concept, but not worth the effort. Got enough things to worry about already Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 Simon, Trust me, after what happened here in December I care a LOT LESS about this forum and its inhabitants and that extends to my emotional involvement too. I'm not about to get myself all worked up and spitting fire just because someone's an idiot. Maybe someday someone will get me riled up again (probably only happen if they attack me personally though) but pretty much I'm gonna just take it nice and easy unless someone is stupid enough to launch a personal attack. As for the updates.... 1. Whatever updates you get you'll complain about since you'll feel you should be being told more. 2. Whenever someone mentions. "Bug X was discovered today" and the next day it isn't mentioned as fixed some of you will go ape worrying about the bug (95% won't but the annoying 5% will and that annoying 5% is loud). Odds are it will have been fixed by Charles but just not included in the official update. End result there are FAR too many downsides to giving updates with that level of detail and anything else won't satisfy you. Those are the cold hard facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxm2 Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 I also feel strongly about this issue in favor of regular updates, and here's why: 1. It is not useful to say that you shouldn't provide updates because some people won't be satisfied with any update you give them. Some people won't be satisfied with anything you do. You have to make decisions on some basis other than whether everyone is satisfied. So that's not a telling argument. If some people don't want to read updates, fine, don't read them. 2. My guess is that there are many of us out here who enjoy seeing how a game progresses, what elements are worked on, about how long it takes to do stuff (I have learned something interesting from every update Steve has posted), and who feel better about the developers (they care enough to keep us informed) and the wait because of the updates. I also suspect that there are many silent members who may be happy to get updates, especially new people who come to the discussion board and are not going to peruse hundreds of recent posts to try to figure out what stage things are at. 3. As for the argument that taking the five mintes it probably takes to post an update, Steve can tell us if it's too much time and if it vitally damages the progress of CM. You think he would be giving updates if it set back his release schedule significantly? (that's a rhetorical question--my answer is: I don't think so) Updates are one of those things a game producing organization can do which take almost no time and which create much good will and public relations among (I would guess, despite the vociferous opponents) for the company. Most game organizations don't do half the stuff BTS has done--things which improve the product for me before I ever even see the finished work. I think continued regular updates (two weeks sounds good to me) about whatever is happening, even if it's trivial to some, is real cheap good PR. If we had a poll, I think the majority of potential customers who see the updates appreciate them. Please continue this, Steve. ------------------ Max Molinaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 IMHO, we're past the stage for updates. The next update that I want to see is that CM is shipping in 2 weeks. While I agree with Max's argument that updates are a GOOD thing, those sorts of updates would've been more useful over the past year or so. Now, all I want is my go code! chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 Updates - hey all I want is some sort of regular scheduled weekly update that says something like "Nothing new this week" or "Expect some news next week" this way I check this board once a week is see if there is anything new or expected. I don't want to know about specific details. Release date - come on, I don't understand why BTS can't give us a release date of sometime in 2nd quarter, 3rd quarter, etc. I work in the software industry and if I told my customers I don't know when your software will be completed and can't give them a schedule, I'd be fired! When my company buys something the vendors get a PO number and I expect either the product or a deliver date. How long would anyone do business with a company that couldn't provide either? I normally don't buy products that aren't ready. I've learned the hard way about doing business with software companies that promise but can't deliver. But it's only a game right? Good business practices are the same for every business; the companies that don't learn this aren't around long. If BTS doesn't want to hear this any more just let me know and I'll cancel my order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 But, Pad152, I think there IS an important difference here. A purchase order is actually a contract. We have no contracts with BTS, only an intent to buy once the product is released. As such, BTS owes us nothing. chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 We have made several estimated release dates (using quarters and sometimes months as targets), and have blown through all of them. This creates false hopes and expectations. Why is it so hard to understand that tossing out another one UNTIL we are SURE isn't in anybody's interest, least of all yours? Yes, internally we discuss the progress and likely time to do x y and z, but this is not something we wish to share. That is standard business practice, or do you know of companies that send out press releases when it has fixed a bug, put in a new menu option, or moved the location of an "OK" button? Yes, we know very well that all of you are VERY anxious for a release. As I have said before, nobody is more anxious than us. This is not lost on us, believe me. I am here typing this, aren't I? But it is only "just a game", and like any game out there it is only something to be bought or not bought. There really is no other relationship other than that. The fact that we have involved the gamer so heavily before releasing doesn't change the basic nature of what we are doing. We are busting our asses to make something and we answer to noone until it is released. Yes, I could tell you we are going to ship in a month. And we could in theory have done that for months already. But then we would have hundreds of posts every day bitching and moaning about so many little things that aren't polished. Reviews would take us down a peg as well, all of which means reduced sales and hardship for us. Sorry, but we know the customer mentality far too well and therefore it won't ship until WE say it is ready. So what is the point of telling you a ship date only to miss it because we aren't done? Why can't we predict dates better? Because nobody, especially not us, has ever done a game as complex and deep as Combat Mission. At Impressions we generally had 10 or more FULL TIME people working 60-80 hrs a week on a game that isn't nearly as complex, so understand that we are the victim of our own creation. At least we admit that we don't know when it is going to be done instead of continually pretending that we do. As for preorders... not one credit card has been charged. So obligation wise no sale has been made. Having a preorder sitting here means no burden and no obligation to either party until the day we charge the cards, which we will only do when we are a few days away from actually shipping finished goods. If we were to go Chapter 11 (don't worry ) right now it would be as if we never existed in the first place from a purchase standpoint. So if someone wants to cancel their preorder, no problemo. It is no sweat off our nose because money wise it is exactly the same for us once the game ships. If you really do care about CM you will buy it sooner or later (for more money if you cancel a special preorder deal). So if you have placed a preorder, and really want the game, there is absolutely no harm in having it stay active. The only possible reason to yank back a preorder from us is to make some sign of protest, but I can assure you it won't make any favorable impression on us. What is being protested? That we haven't cut corners and rushed the game out before it is done? That we haven't given a release date that we can stick to with 100% certainty? Please... this is unreasonable and irrational to say the least, which is why such an action won't phase us in the least. We appreciate the votes of confidence in CM (and that is all a preorder is until we process it), and have even rewarded the earlier ones with better deals, but please don't think that gives you some sort of right to tell us how to run our business. If you think it does, I will gladly delete your preorder and rectify the understanding. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Scurlock Posted March 9, 2000 Share Posted March 9, 2000 Hey Pad, you got to admit, Steve makes at lot of sense. As for preorders, the only worry I have is that mine has been in for so long I just hope it's not lost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg Scurlock: Hey Pad, you got to admit, Steve makes at lot of sense. As for preorders, the only worry I have is that mine has been in for so long I just hope it's not lost!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, they still have them. I ordered back in June and they still have it. I agree, Steve makes perfect sense. Let's just all relax and let them do their job. BTS does not tell us how to run our business so let them run theirs. We all want this game really bad, that is a fact. However, we must remember it is BTS' rep and livelyhood we are talking about. CM needs to get good press and reviews, so they want the game to be very polished and working properly. Remember, BTS is not Hasbro or Microsoft (which is a good thing). Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 And thus this goes back to the point I was atempting to make earlier. Steve has now spent what, an hour having to respond to this post, the last in a defensive manner. All that time has to come from somewhere and with how many hours Steve is putting in at the moment he certainally cant stay up later to offset that time spent here. Pad, Im a programmer too, and you cant tell me you havnt ever made a date for something to be ready and found for one reason or another its not, well not if youve been doing it for long. Yes, if you told your boss it would be done when its done you may indeed get fired, but the difference here is that Steve and Charles are making THEIR game how they see fit and in the manner they believe will do it justice. I totally agree with Steve in that there is no point in releasing a date that may not be met. Steve has already told us MANY times that he will give us an update at the end of the month, not all that far away and I really cant see how anyone can expect any more. They are doing they best to get it to us as soon as possible so PLEASE, let them do it how the feel works best for them and CM [This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 03-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: I'd have to agree with Major Tom<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He says it like there is something wrong about agreeing with me! Not to further beat this subject beyond consciousness, but, there is not too much beyond actually seeing the entire game that they haven't disclosed to us. PLUS! They said that they want to keep a few suprises for us when they release the sucker! They said that they won't know when it will be done until it is done. Many people probably assume that they can determine how far along the thing is purely by measuring the content of updates. The only update we really need to hear is that it is released and where we can download the Gold demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icee93 Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Thanks BTS, we are all adults here and all I wanted was an estimated release information, nothing more nothing less. It seems that a possible ESTIMATED release date may be forthcoming at the end of the month, for that I thank you. If you say our release date is most likely Oct 15th, 2000, SO BE IT! You would not hear a peep from me till then and if you missed the date by a month or so SO WHAT, at least I know that was an attempt and you tried your best, however, i.e. the following things delayed the project.......or something to that effect. S&C are only human an unanticipated delays are to be expected. Just wanted to hear from your marketing department thats all I find it so much easier to enjoy the board when I have a time estimate in mind!!! I find many wargame publishers provide this service and I appreciate it very much. In fact I find it the most important support item the respective company can release before it goes gold. Just my 2 cents..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Thanks everybody. And yes Major Tom, I did have to hold my nose and shut my eyes when I agreed with you Ok, here is one more tidbit... the British Comet model was a pain in the butt, but I just finished 'er off The list of models left is very short at the moment. Some more textures, but the model stuff is nearly complete. More on that at the end of the month Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Just wanted to hear from your marketing department thats all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Marketing department? LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Fionn, I think that makes me and you the marketing department. Those of us going around telling people how great the game is. Our pay? A CM2 if we sell enough, and that is good enough for me. Others are doing the same, spread the word so that we see Ferdinands and T-34s and massive buildings and more... personally hoping for massive tractor tyoe buildings...stalingrad in cm2! [Hoping] rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 June 2004...I can live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hehe... well I couldn't. My wife would have me sleeping out in the barn long before then, and let's just say I don't think I would survive the winter of 2000/2001 if that were the case End of this month we will have more info for you. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EScurlock Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by icee93: Thanks BTS, we are all adults here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Who's an adult?! I still have the face of a 15 year old boy. O.K. The face of a 15 year old boy with a bad hangover. ------------------ He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Quote from Gamespot A-10 article... "Ultima: Ascension was simply pushed out the door, regardless of the fact that it was obvious that it was in no state to ship. The first patch was actually dated before the official release date. Now, with a new set of patches out, the game's message boards have been closed to new posts. Essentially, it has been consigned to oblivion. All in the rush to move to online-only. In the words of an ex-Origin employee, "That is why Ascension is ignored now. No one cared, even when it shipped. It was just a milestone to get past to move on to the big time." That's why BTS'w way is best! ------------------ CCJ aka BLITZ_Force My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my new Textures V2.0 photo Gallery and my music while your there, or grab a CM Wallpaper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hundminen Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Steve and Charles: Your integrity is awesome. Please e-mail me if you ever decide to offer an IPO Hundminen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 If any restless people are still reading, try to think of the wait like i do. I try to assume that CM is 30 days away, because I know it can't possibly be any sooner. Tomarrow, I will say to myself, 30 days away. Its sounds dumb, but I know it wont suddenly appear next week, and I wait eagerly for the "go code" to start my 30 day countdown!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard III Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Foobar, I do that too... Except I use 60 days.... Won't get my hopes up too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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