mortarforker Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Why are out-of-ammo mortar squads as impotent as Bob Dole? As a former Marine mortarman I must protest. 60mm mortars are attatched to rifle companies and their crews recieve the same basic infantry training as riflemen and machinegunners. Our WWII counterparts had at least a few carbines and pistols. In CM I gnash my teeth in frustration as a platoon worth of mortarmen slink away to the rear while decimated rifle squads struggle to hold the line. Even worse, when the enemy gets up in my rear mortarmen are slaughtered like cattle. Mortarmen can fight at least as well as a crew of sorry ass dismounted tankers,give us our due. CM2 must include small arms capibility for mortar crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick614 Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Good post, Mortarforker. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 I know nothing about Mortar crews in real life, but I like the suggestion. It would be nice to have them do something but "withdraw" from the battlefield once shells were used up. Question for you: since mortars require special training, is it realistic that they should simply be moved to the rear or taken out of the battle entirely once their load is used up, so as not to get them kacked in a firefight and thus "waste" the specially trained men? Perhaps that's why no combat for them in CM beyond mortar fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagdBoy Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Excellent points! In Close Combat, mortar squads are allowed to fight as weak infantry using their assigned arms (rifles, carbines, etc.), but if you are playing the campaign game it's wise to hold them back as emergency gap pluggers (you want them around next game!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortarforker Posted December 1, 2000 Author Share Posted December 1, 2000 Re: Mr. Clarke Specially trained? kind of. Mortar's are pretty straightforward and half the guys in a mortar squad are unskilled ammo humpers. In general a commander might want to spare his specialists from the meat grinder, but in a desperate situation you use what you got. The fact is, mortarmen's inability to fight or even defend themselves is downright unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 I totally agree! In the Army all infantry are 11 series,mortarmen being 11C! By God if they're out of mortar rounds they become infantryman, or 11B's! ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 I highly suggest you gentleman do a search on the topic. I seem to remember 2 or 3 100+ post threads on this exact topic. IIRC the consensus was that castrating mortar units firepower wise after they ran out of ammo was to prevent gamey behavior. Steve justified this in depth (and very well I might add), you'll have to search for details though. -EridanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 seems like a good place to ask this: Could one of you enlighten me as to the difference between an 11B10 and 11B20? I need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltfed Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 It's been awhile but I recall the difference in the two is skill level. Fer higher ranks, i.e. sergeant and above you get FMs fer 11B20 and up. FYI in US army 11C is mortars, 11H is tow, 11M is bradley crew/gunner? Anyway each of those would have a task manual that would denote rank by the number after the original MOS identifier. ------------------ NCOIC, 718th TFW, www.718tfw.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Thanks for the info Mortar! Truth is, I spend most of my CM time yelling at my mortar men... as they tend to duck and cover as soon as I find a decent spot for them, then, as a perfect target moves into view... they bolt for the trees or nearest house... If anyone wants to toss some free mortar tips my way, I'd be mighty happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Beltfed (cool nick btw ) Thanks. That fits perfectly with what I was researching. Appreciate the help. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Hey, a bunch of new faces all in one spot The problem with the suggestion that out of ammo Mortar teams (and teams in general) being used as line infantry is one of realism. Yes, they were put into the frontlines along with cooks, clerks, truck drivers, etc. when the tough really got going. However... in a game the tough is ALWAYS going, and therefore crews would ALWAYS, in every and all circumstances, be used as line infantry when their main weapons ran out of ammo. I would bet my life on it Now, I think everybody can see that this is entirely unrealistic. Mortarforker... in general, what would you do when your team ran out of ammo? I doubt it would be to abandon one of Uncle Sam's piece of hardware and charge, leaderless in most cases, headlong into hand to hand fighting with the enemy. At least not as a standard rule. But again, in a game the SOP (if you will) of an out of ammo mortar crew would look like this: If Crew is out of ammo, then charge enemy until dead or mission accomplished. In fact, this has been a huge problem with wargames past and present. Ahistorical use of specialized units to achieve "victory in a vacuum". No worries about the CO chewing your butt out for wasting the Company's assets this morning so that they are not available this afternoon (not to mention tonight, tomorrow morning, etc.). Because Combat Mission can not enforce real life consequences of ahistorical use of teams in this way, we made them useless as infantry. We are not going to change this. What we DO hope to change is the self defense part. That has always bothered us too, but it is not an easy thing to recode. In CM2 we hope to have some sort of generic close range self defense factor based on the number of men in the unit. For the rewrite of the CM engine (whenever that is) we will go one step further and simulate individual small arms for crews. That's all for now Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Damn... I was hoping Steve was sending Mortar tips from the top for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 11B2O (not 0!) is called the "twenty" skill level. It is applied to Sergeants (E-5). The 11B1O is the MOS and skill level assigned to PVTs (E-1) through SPC/CPL(E-4). Staff Sergeants (E-6) are at the thirty level (actually 3O) level i.e. 11B3O Sergeants First Class would be 11B4O and Master Sergeants/First Sergeant get the 11Z5O. (note the change to Z at this level) At each skill level there are different tasks that must be mastered. These skill level designation apply to all MOS. Sometimes the O is replaced bz additional skill identifiers like Ranger, Airborne etc. I was awarded the skill identifiers 3Z for mortar training (Infantry Mortar Platoon Course) and 5P for airborne 11B is infantryman 11C is indirect fire infantryman 11M is fightinging vehicle infantryman 11H is haeavy antiarmor weapons infantryman (not just TOW, but Dragon and now Javelin et al.) At the master sergeant level soldiers of all these MOS are awarded the 11Z MOS. for more references see http://www.perscom.army.mil/dcsops/ENLCMF.htm [This message has been edited by RMC (edited 12-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybeq Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Mr. Clark, I am by no means an expert on the use of mortars in the game of CM but here's my two cents. I never expose my mortars. They are always following, never leading. I never direct target with them. I always use a headquarters unit to spot for them. Sneak or crawl the HQ into position and have them hide. Make sure you're in C&C with the mortar. Whatever is in the HQ's LOS can be targeted by the mortar. Fire away! I run out of ammo much more often than I lose mortars to enemy fire. ------------------ "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Nice reply Mortarforker... in general, what would you do when your team ran out of ammo? I doubt it would be to abandon one of Uncle Sam's piece of hardware and charge, leaderless in most cases, headlong into hand to hand fighting with the enemy. ... No worries about the CO chewing your butt out for wasting the Company's assets this morning so that they are not available this afternoon ... What we DO hope to change is the self defense part.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think a fairly simple solution would be to a) have the crew not abandon the mortar unless they have to, as is currently modelled. This make them slow movers and therefore ill suited for assaults. provide the crew with the same armament as other gun crews (pistols) to be used in self defence. Actually; heavy weapon crews in general should be able to use their sidearms if the enemies get too close. (You don't use the 15cm IG against enemies 5m in front of you...) Here's the tough nut for coding: Perhaps having the crew automatically use their sidearms (and hand grenades?) to fight any spotted enemy infantry within 40m (or less?). Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Thanks Cybeq! Gonna play a single player game now and practice keeping mortars out of sight, and "in command." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 One point: all Marines are grunts. Every marine is trained as a rifleman first before being given a combat specalty. Even the cooks. But in the other services it is a different story, especially in times as hectic as WW II. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: What we DO hope to change is the self defense part. That has always bothered us too, but it is not an easy thing to recode...For the rewrite of the CM engine (whenever that is) we will go one step further and simulate individual small arms for crews<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Crews that abandon vehicles or run out of their primary ammo should be low in self defense ammo as well. I think this would limit their ahistorical use. It would also be reasonably accurate since these crews would not carry more than a few clips/magazines/loose-rounds anyway. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 The crew problem has beend iscussed amany times and there will be a modification made in CM2. It has to do with how the program handles crews once their weapon is broke or ammo depleted. It's not somethnig that can be modified in CM but something that's slated for CM2. Until then a REMF is a REMF! Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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