Squad Leader - future competition for CM?

[killmore]

From the CG Gamer site. By Scott Udell. Also Some info about Talonsoft.

Robert Waters, and Tim Kipp all left TalonSoft, as a group, in January. Anyone who's followed computer wargaming in the last four years or so knows that this mass departure rips the core out of TalonSoft's in-house wargaming talent. The five landed at nearby BreakAway Games, developers of Sid Meier's Antietam. The rumor that the five would be working on a Computer Squad Leader with BreakAway is, according to BreakAway head Doug Whatley, not true (although understandable, as BreakAway's Rifle Platoon is a game with a similar scale and setting). Whatley does say, though, that, they are negotiating with Hasbro on other wargames, particularly some of the Avalon Hill titles they'd be interested in developing. Hasbro has come to agreements with outside boardgame developers regarding Avalon Hill titles, so perhaps there's hope for the computer side as well.

One of the group tells me it's really a good thing, hopefully for them and for gamers. Fans of traditional TalonSoft wargames probably don't have a lot to look forward to, however. Computer Games Magazine editor Denny Atkin spoke with TalonSoft's Jim Rose about the future of wargames and TalonSoft. "We long term see the wargame market going full 3D," Rose said. My response is "perhaps," although I can only see this happening in tactical games (admittedly the currently popular scale). Note, too, that TalonSoft has removed any reference to wargames from its web site, instead categorizing its existing wargame lineup as either strategy games or simulations (several queries to TalonSoft reps about this have, as yet, gone unanswered).

[Guest R Cunningham]

Well this will be interesting, but it won't be competition for CM directly because if it still going to be a Squad Leader product it will have to have some recognizeable SL characteristics and it mostl likely won't be 3D.

It will be interesting to read the discussions that will pop up when this one goes into development. Like the old days on this board, well its predecessor, there are still many people waiting for SL/ASL tranlated to the computer complete with Prep Fire counters, IFTs, To Kill tables and of course hexagons.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

As far as old Avalon Hill games goes, I'd like to see the game "Flight Leader" to go into the computer game world. And since it was mainly a pencil and paper game like SFB, then maybe it could be done using the StarFleet Command engine. Have like highly textured 3D models of the airplanes zooming and maneuvering around a 3D playing field with a texture rendered ground according to the theater in which the engagement takes place.

And actually, "Starship Troopers" was a Avalon Hill game. Someone could do a 3D strategy based game like that-similar to Combat Mission's engine. I know there is already a FPS game of Starship Troopers, but just think of the possibilities of it using the CM simultaneous execution phase. Could get pretty bloody.

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"I want you to remember that...no bastard ever won a war...by dying for his country...He won it...by making the other poor dumb bastard...die for his country."--George S. Patton

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Ol' Blood & Guts:

>I'd like to see the game "Flight Leader"

>to go into the computer game world.

That was the modern air combat game, right? Got that in a moving box somewhere...

I suggest you check out "Flight Commander 2". It is somewhat dated (sorry guys) but it a 'shoe-in' for the old AH game IMHO. And for only $15, you really can't lose.

As for a "Starship Troopers" game I assume you are talking about the original AH "Starship Troopers" game based on the book and not the later game based on the movie.

If so, I would point you toward Boku games latest release "Armies of Armageddon:WDK", formerly of Battlefront.com now at www.shrapnelgames.com (NOTE: they are currently having some ISP problems but should be up again very soon).

This game is basically a construction kit for making your own PC wargames...and the last I heard several players were hard a work on a "Starship Troopers" game. But it is not 3d.

Good luck.

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Gromit]

Seeing that we are (sort of) talking about Talonsoft, I would like to see if anyone on this board can shed some light on the following:

I own both EF2 and WF- currently I cannot play either because I (silly me!) chose to buy a new game that requires DirectX 7, which gives the Campaign series installer fits.

So here is my question...

Has anyone out there heard if any sort of fix is forthcoming from TS? The last mention (officially) on the website was the original message from October 27, 1999, warning of the "incompatibility".

Personally, I think TS is going to wait for someone else (i.e., Microsoft) to fix DirectX.

Hey, I would love to be able to fire these two games up while waiting for CM, but in light of the recent departures in the wargaming group of TS I'm not holding my breath.

Any news or rumors for that matter would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gromit

[Brian Rock]

I received my copy of Flight Commander II last week. I'd played it before on the recommendations of a friend who spoke very highly about it. I'd forgotten how much fun it really is. Not a highly sophisticated game by current standards, but as much gameplay as ever.

No idea how close it is to the original game though.

[Guest Thomas William Davie]

Gromit: I'm running Windows 2000 Build 2195 (rtm) that currently has DirectX 7.0a I've got East Front 1, West Front 1.04a (had to hex edit to remove cd check), and Rising Sun demo working on it.

So, it might not necessarily be DirectX 7 thats the problem. Personally, I found the problem to be the form of copy protection that Talonsoft uses.

Tom

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email address:

thodavie@videon.wave.ca

[jekell]

Gromit:

The only "fix" I've found for this is to copy the entire folder to your hard drive...

Jekell...a fellow disgruntled Talonsoft game owner and DX7 user.

[Pirate]

I don't think there is any such thing as competition in the wargame market. I quote the imortal words of Jack Dott, "If you put the game on the shelf people will buy it"

Games sell because of distribution, not wether they are better than other games.

[Runyan99]

This is my first post on this board. I wanted to make a quick comment on Talonsoft. As a former playtester and scenario designer for a few of their games (BGG,EF) I have to say that this break away from wargames is not much of a surprise to me. Almost two years ago, when we were working on the EF expansion, they were already losing focus on wargames. TS and Jim Rose started to look for other projects to boost the bottom line for TS. They released some kind of goofy post-apocalyptic biker game or some thing.

Anyway, I was constantly pressing the guys at TS to tweak the EF/WF games to correct some of the numerous fudges and innacuracies in that series of games. Ultimately I was frustrated (and pressed for time) so I left just as playtesting was starting on WF.

Let me say though that I am very impressed with CM. It is the historical combat *simulation* I was trying to squeeze out of TS. I expect to be floating around this discussion board for quite a while to come.

Let's hope that BTS does not lose it's focus, or its core of dedicated hard-core wargaming personnel anythime soon.

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"Never mind what Clausewitz thought! What do YOU think?"

Erwin Rommel as a young instructor at the Potsdam school of infantry.

[Lee]

Wargaming personnel? Hehe. There is only Steve and Charles, and

I don't think they are going anywhere.

Welcome aboard, Runyan99. Yep, CM is the final word in WWII

tactical land combat wargames at this scale, nothing else can

touch it.

[rich12545]

I run WF and EFII with dx7 with no problem. There is a simple fix posted on the Talonsoft site. It has to do with replacing a file in the temp folder during installation. It's a simple procedure and everything works fine.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Speaking of Talonsoft...I just bought the add-on for Hidden & Dangerous (Devil's Bridge) and the thing runs like molasses. It's not my system (Celeron-433), 'cause I've heard that even on a PIII-600 it ran like ****.

Apparently Talonsoft's QA is gone down the ****ter. It's like they released a Alpha build. However the European version Fight for Freedom seems to have been running fine with no visible complaints.

[CoolColJ]

I've got WF and I can't get into - I remeber posting on their old forum...about what I thought of it - damn the I'm surprised I didn't get kicked out

Horrid interface, and supreme micro management...there is just too many units to control... I guess when you don't have much of a choice, the few things out there seem pretty good BRING ON CM!

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CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj

Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my music while your there!

[Guest Thomas William Davie]

CCJ; to each his own. I find that Combat Mission contains a large degree of micromanagement, but not WF. Go figure eh?

And then, there actually is a large choice of games out there with the same subject matter, and I still liked (and do like) WF. Again, go figure

Matter of fact, even though I'm sure Rising Sun won't work on W2000 I'm gonna buy it tonight because I'm so damn arrogant I think I can disable the CD check which would prevent me from playing the game.

All this trouble for a less than good game

Most of the above said firmly tongue in cheek, except for the part about me obviously liking the campaign series and NOT liking having to hack games to get them to run.

Tom

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email address:

thodavie@videon.wave.ca

[EScurlock]

From the CG Gamer site. By Scott Udell.

Computer Games Magazine editor Denny Atkin spoke with TalonSoft's Jim Rose about the future of wargames and TalonSoft. "We long term see the wargame market going full 3D," Rose said. My response is "perhaps," although I can only see this happening in tactical games (admittedly the currently popular scale).

Getting back on subject: This is the second shark I've seen cruising the 3D tactical wargame waters from a distance. SSI has also hinted that Steel Panthers IV may be a full 3D game; but like Talensoft, they're in no hurry to invest in development.

I think they're waiting to see if CM is a finnancial success. Then they'll produce there CM rippoffs and mass-market them.

In light of this news, one can understand why BTS is taking so long on appearances, i.e. spit and polish for the game.

There marketing approach is novel. If CM isn't almost beyond reproach, it wont see much free publicity. CM will be forgoten by the editors of the big gaming magazines who will be more than happy to suck up advertising money from the big software marketing firms in support of the CM ripoffs.

You know the scenario: lots of exciting adds, lots of fascinating previews, then once the game hits the shelf - nothing for at least a month or two(especially if the game is full of bugs).

Only once the public has been sold into buying thousands upon thousands of copies do the magazine editors allow their writers to publish scathing reviews of the half baked junk that the public has been conned into buying.

CM is going to have to catch the public's imagination enough to sell magazines before it will get the kind of cover page publicity it deserves. Otherwise expect it to be just a blurp in articles about the big guy's games that are in development. Unless of course the big boys don't see a CM rip-off as being a profitable indevor. Then my whole point is mute.

The good news it that there's enough of us hard-corpes war gammers out there to make CM a success in spite of the marketing disadvantages CM suffers from. This is becouse the method of marketing they've chossen has one key offsetting advantage: low overhead.

The software kings are dead, long live Big Time Software!

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He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[Fionn]

I think you'll be surprised when I say that I don't foresee any real competition appearing against CM for some time.

Why?

Simple, CM combines the 3D engine with a WEGO system and massive research and historical veracity.

If Atomic goes 3D (under the guise of SSI), something which wouldn't surprise me and something I'm sure they've looked into (it's natural) then we'll get a 3D engine and an RTS system... My thoughts about the Super-duper rocket tank (aka Calliope) are, I trust, well-known and speak for my estimation of historical veracity I think.

Talonsoft simply isn't going to make a proper wargame again in the sense that TOAW, CM, Smolensk etc are proper wargames. They're bringing out 3D-engined RTS games called "War Monkeys" and something about dogfighting Zeppelins for God's sake .

Breakaway is doing a 3D-engined, turn-based game of squad level combat with the player commanding a squad of players. It is being touted as a mix between RPG and tactical combat game with HEAVY emphasis on RPG elements.

HPS might do something with a 3D engine but then Oscar and others would probably bitch at them ... Seriously though, if HPS did a 3D engine (which there's no indication I can see that they have the programming talent for) it'd be something that comes out between CM2 and CM3. It'd just take that long.

There's others but this suffices for now.

My point is that those various "competitors" are either going to select VERY different market niches or are NOT aiming for the same scale as CM OR simply mightn't be able to do a 3D engine.

Atomic/SSI would have the muscle to do it BUT if it were an RTS with individual soldiers it would NOT feature Battalions etc.. It'd be lucky to feature a platoon on each side. Right there you can see that that game would appeal to a different niche than CM. CM REALLY shines when you're pitting battalions against eachother.

My current PBEM against Bil Hardenberger in a bocage scenario is reminding me time and again of how my tactical solutions to things are EXACTLY what the Germans did in real life. It's like recreating history.. Simply amazing.

[Johan Brittz]

TS - hah! I owed/still owe? EF & WF, but took them off the same day I got the CM Beta. I'm not the least surprised to hear about the mass resignation. To take their board as an example: Uptight/snotty and insecure - just go on there and mention CM - I dared it once (also the last time I went in there) and was promptly warned off via e'mail... BTS/CM is a breath of fresh air. I was with them for about 2 years, but never felt comfortable - hardly ever posted, because the risk of being flamed was always there. Thought their customer service stank - mentioned it once and was flamed all to hell.. What comes around.. hah

[Lee]

Fionn: "They're bringing out 3D-engined RTS games called "War Monkeys"

and something about dogfighting Zeppelins for God's sake."

Lol! Kinda sad isn't it?

[iggi]

We haven't even really seen the beauty of CM's wego engine since the pbem demo has a slight igougo turn based feel to it,(since we take turns sending files back and forth). The ease of wego internet play will give CM a more real time feel to it.

I'm just saying that if you like CM now, wait until the internet play is available and you'll really appreciate the speed and realism of the wego engine.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 02-05-2000).]

[Fionn]

Lee,

I was going to go more for Pathetic instead of sad

[CoolColJ]

Thomas

When I say mico-management in WF, it is there. The units are dumb, they will stand in hex till they blown up to bits, they have no self preservation...which means you have manage very single damn unit I can't stand that in any game. That's one of the reasons why I like CM so much, I don't have to bother picking targets for my units.

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CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj

Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my music while your there!

[Guest MantaRay]

Well I disagree with the last statement. EF-WF is modeled for 250m hexes. Hard to run that far to avoid fire. =}

Personally I like EF and sort of WF. I think for the time they were made, they were ok. I mean it is hard to combine everything everyone wanted out of that game with the technological limits they had. Plus in order to make a good game, it would have taken them many years, and a small company that they were when EF came out, I dont think they had the time. Too bad that they lost sight of what their commitment was to their customers. They could have been a contender.

Sad part is that they are making ****ty games now(except for TOAW and BOB) and making a profit. We are a small group of people, and now that they are big business, they have to cater to their market, which is games most of us do not like. CODENAME EAGLE is a friggen joke. It is way worse than Hidden and Dangerous. Cool name, stupid game.

I wonder what will become of Glenn Saunders and the beta brigade now. Hope they move over here and play...I need to get some revenge for some PBEM's I had with a few of them in EF.

OH WELL, back to Panzer Elite

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www.panzerelite.iwarp.com

[CoolColJ]

Well EF/Wf were just computer versions of Boardgames - how sad, even die rolls and to hit/firepower tables

that's what I told em on their forum - Glenn Saunders, ahh that's a name that rings a bell - ROFL

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CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj

Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my music while your there!

[Guest Thomas William Davie]

Ah, we've got an argument going.

So, EF/WF and RS are just computer equivalents of boardgames are they? Well, let's get this on an even playing field and first ask you the question;

What do you think Combat Mission utilizes to decide between alternatives? It ain't voodoo or chicken bones Yep, that's right....good ole random number's. It might be influenced by probability distribution, bell curves, linear regression or what have you.....but it's got random numbers in there somewhere. Don't believe me, ask Steve or Charles.

Just what do you think to hit rolls and firepower tables are? Combat Mission has to hit rolls (clothe them in another name if you want), and they've got firepower tables. Don't believe me? Go into a scenario (say the last defense) and pick a full squad. Take a look at the firepower of the squad at all of the ranges, and plot firepower .vs. range. Apply a semi logarithmic curve fit (it's about 99% by the way), and it generally holds from squad to sqaud.

As a matter of fact, if you plot the range attenuation of some of the German main weapons, you get identical slopes and intercepts.

At the heart of the combat system is a mathematically interpretable set of numbers. Don't take my word for it; ask Fionn about some of the material I've sent him.

So, either we have to colour Combat Mission with the same sort of implied insult, or you have to retract your implied insult from TS's campaign system. It's clear you don't like it, and I've got no problem with that.....it's the implied ad hominem insults that leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

In the end, Combat Mission and the Campaign series are very different game systems aiming at different targets. If you want to compare them, you are going to fail, unless you happen to be very precise about what you are comparing.

Tom

Oh yeah, I did buy The Rising Sun (by Talonsoft) yesterday, and although it installed under Windows 2000, it would not run until the CD check was disabled. I returned the game because quite frankly I don't think it's my responsibility to have to hack every game I buy just to get them to run. One TS rep suggested that I get a computer system that meets the minimum game requirements (but still, it's their damn copy protection that won't allow the game to run under NT/2000).

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email address:

thodavie@videon.wave.ca