Apology and point concerning previous post in "How do the Germans feel about W2, now?

[thomasj]

Steve/BTS Community,

I truly was not trying to flame anyone, nor was I trying to justify the actions and decisions of the elite in the NAZI party, and I am sorry for posting it if that was the way it was perceived. I am a proud American, who’s family has made the ultimate sacrifice for freedom several times, and even served myself nine years in the European theater myself which involved three deployments to austere environments, and would pick up my weapon and go back in service if that dark cloud evil spread across the land again. I do ask though if you haven’t to please sometime look at the Treaty of Versailles in detail, then look into the Marshall plan in detail, along with the knowledge I have obtained from talking to people and veterans of several European countries I think you’ll find the basis for my conclusions.

Two of my Dutch co-workers have even read what I posted and they say that I am right on the money. It just torn me up to read the responses people were giving in the thread, and I wanted to give them reminder as to why Hitler got into power and why the population backed him so much, and how the propaganda machine of the Nazi party was able to blame their current state of affairs on the JEWS.

Again Steve, and all BTS people, I am sorry for causing such a negative response, but in the case of WWII there is more to the truth then one side of the story or any education can teach. Other then traveling or living in countries that were involved in the conflict and talking to people that were there and listening to stories will one start to put together the puzzle that watered down education and glossed over history would never bring to light.

Mr. Thomas, James D.

Chief Systems Administrator

US Army, 39th SIG BN

RSC-NL

Voice # 360-7224

Fax # 360-7310

Thomasj@39thsigbn.schinnen.army.mil

[Jochen2]

I´m a realtor in Germany, Stuttgart. Once i offered an isrealic student an appartement. I ask her, how the people in israel are thinking about the germans - after all what happend in WWII.

She smiled and said: "Mr. Smith, the only thing, we in israel, see about Germany in television, is when german skinheads are marching along the streets, shouting against jewish people or forigners. The only thing, the germans see about israel in Television is, when ultraortodex-jewish-people are fighting against poor palestinian people in the street. - Mr. Smith, the real live in isreal, especially in Tel-Aviv is: sitting on the beach, having a cool drink, listening to good techno-music and have love and peace. The same thing here in germany, but where, in Stuttgart, is the beach!?

I think, this shows how the times are - NOW.We all have to be careful, that extremits are stopped ealry enough, not only in germany. And, anti-american thinking, is in germany not born, ´cause we lost the war, but as in the USA, by those "flower-power"-people who started in the vietnam-war to demonstrate against the society in the free world.

I think, most (older) germans are very thankful to the american forces. THEY gave the starving people food, THEY build up a new infrastructure, THEY let us grow up again - so that we are in the present a free, democratic aaaaaand PEACEFUL nation.

Sorry, that i posted this here. I know that BTS has closed the old discussion - but, i have to say this.

Thanks to all

Jochen

[PeterNZer]

ooo puuhhleeeaseee.. Flower power people demonstrating against best, (I assume from the english in the post, that there is supposed to be some quality statement here) free country in the world?

If people are "anti-american", whatever that might exactly mean, they are generally so for a reason. Of course, i'm not justifying such feelings, nor do i necesarily feel they are correct or not arrogant to think so, but i can certainly UNDERSTAND why people might be that way.

Example:

In south american, (Argentina), which i have visited recently, I was told 'make sure they know you're a New Zealander, because they hate Americans' .. well i didn't talk to Argentinians about this, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. And why not? Argentina saw US intervention topple several democratically elected governments in the region, and I can't recall exactly, but the US might have supported the various dictators Argentina has experienced to some degree. Can you blame them then? Of course, it is stupid to then dislike all Americans, but it is -understandable-. In Europe, Americans it seems are often 'hated' everywhere, not just Germany. Generally they are considered to be stupid and fat, (this is what everyone else thinks, no reflection on people here or what i might think!). My sister delights in regailing me of various stupid American tourists she encountered, (eg. one lady in the vatican talking to her friend, "is this where the pope lives?"). In fact, on my first day being a tourist I saw this kinda thing first hand when i was in Westminster Abbey and some American tourists ignored the 'no talking' signs next to a tomb, and then later on proceeded to -climb- onto something in the middle of the Abbey to get a better view at something, ("this ain't a freak'n jungle gym!").

Anyway, it's a fact of life, American's have a bad reputation overseas. I don't care if they won the war, invented democracy, (not), are the freest state in the universe, (try and get elected with less than $5m) etc etc etc etc etc, that's the way it is!

If American's don't like it, well it's a bit unfortunate really! O, if you're traveling, try not to wear white sneakers, (especially if they match with your partner), baseball caps, (past your 20s) and so on.. just marks you out as an American hehe

I've probably offended lots of people here, o well. I hope everyone reads this post carefully and understands that it's meant to inform, not offend.

ta

PeterNZ

[patboivin]

When I was a teenager and some friends of mine went to France, Italy and Ireland, they were warned: Put your Canadian flags on your backpacks because Americans are not popular.

When I was in France, we couln't get any service from a clerk in a hotel until my little brother said out loud: "maman, j'ai faim. Est-ce qu'on va manger bientôt?"

The clerk exclaimed: "Ah, mais vous parlez français?! Je croyais que vous étiez américains. Pardon madame." (translation: Ah, but you speak French?! I thought you were Americans. Sorry madam.") My mother then explained that we were Canadians, and the man was positively friendly then.

Same thing in Normandy, when the attendants at a small (very small) gas station learned we were Canadian, they spend about twenty minutes explaining where we should go, what to see, what to avoid. They were great.

My father mentioned that once they went on a two-week tour of Belgium, parts of Germany, and parts of the Nehterlands. (bus tours would not be my first choice, but hey.) One American was on the bus and he slept through the whole tour. When my father asked him why he wasn't interested, he just said: "I'm on vacation, I don't give a $@%^ about these countries, I'm here to sleep and to stuff myself and to drink their wine." My father was speechless so he didn't say anything, and from that moment on my parents avoided the guy like the plague.

[Knaust]

I'm italian...many people say we aren't able to fight....we lost the war....but nowadays pizza is ruling all over the world!

Anyway if you want to know more about jews and Germany read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" from Goldhagen, professor on Government and Social Studies at Harvard University.

BTW...anyone must appreciate that Germany is nowadays a perfectly democratic nation, able to learn from its past!

[PawBroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin:

Put your Canadian flags on your backpacks because Americans are not popular.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Pat,

There so much truth in it.

I'm French and leaved/worked in Czech Republic for some time.

There were so many tourists that in summer, you had in fact MORE tourists in Prague than Czechs in the whole Republic.

They despised Germans/Americans.

Guess it comes from lack of money or showing of thereof.

But they LOVED the Canadians and the French.

One anecdote says it all.

We were drinking beer sooo fast that the guys from the pub had to go BUY empty cokes to supply glasses ( ) and we were all pretty much zonked out.

The americans wouldn't try some of that awfully strong liquor they got there in eastern Europe.

We french and canadians were drinking anything with strudy handles on it...

One guy from somewhere in Canada said: "The difference between us and those guys from the US it that at least we canadians are at least willing to try..."

Don't want to do some stupid anti americanism (after all one had to free us once were dead drunk...) but as far as Europe is concerned I think that one is very typical.

After all, you can't find a worst tourist than an arogant french so I guess I'm qualified.

PS: Boy do I love Canadians (Now send me a copy of CM)

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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[DrD]

My experiences as an American during a 2-month backpacking trip in Europe were that almost all Europeans were willing to give my friends and me the benefit of the doubt. Since we were polite and fairly knowledgable about history, culture, etc. we were well treated.

A typical story was in Venice when we went to use the bathroom in a nice restaurant we weren't eating in. Just before we went in some Americans we knew from the hostel came out and said "don't bother, they won't let you use it." Undeterred, we whipped out our English-Italian dictionary, learned how to say "where is the bathroom" in Italian, and next thing we knew we were peeing in bliss!

Unfortunately, much of the American rep is deserved as we are rude by European standards (for example it is NOT common here to say "excuse me?" before you start talking to someone like to ask for directions.) However, if you go to Europe and are polite, interested, and don't assume everyone speaks English (and learn how to say do you speak english? and thank you in the native language) you'll be well treated by everyone.

[dalem]

Wow. I'm headed to Europe for 2 weeks in October. Hope I can enjoy myself, even though I'm only a lowly Yank.

(imagine smiley here)

-dale

[rich12545]

when ultraortodex-jewish-people are fighting against poor palestinian people in the street

I would assume you heard wrong. I can't believe any Israeli would refer to murderers as those "poor people."

[PawBroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem:

Wow. I'm headed to Europe for 2 weeks in October. Hope I can enjoy myself, even though I'm only a lowly Yank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you find yourself in trouble, err, in Paris, give me a call and we'll drink and CM so that you'll find yourself less lowly and more integrated...

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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[G4A]

Why isn't this useless thread padlocked?

[RMC]

Quaint story, visting Germany in 1988. We're in Luebeck. Our tour guide was very energetic and proud of Luebeck. She showed how the twin-tower gate was on the (old) 50 mark bill and emphasised the "ue" in Luebeck because it is normally mispronounced by Americans. Anyway, at somepoint we're waking down a street and a car goes by and blows its horn (not at us). I asked her what Germans called that noise that the car had made because, though I spoke pretty good German at that point there were gaps in my knowledge. I couldn't for the life of me think of how to say that a car had honked its horn in German. So she tells me that the car has a "Hupe." I repeat what she says and her immediate response is "Are you French?" I reply "no." Her: "but you speak German so well."

I thought that was so funny and yet so sad, that as a tour guide of some experience she could not reconcile an American having decent skill in her language. The ugly american syndrome lives on.

Anyway, I concur with what the others here have said in that if you are polite and at least make an effort to communicate, even using phrase books, you will be treated much better than if you act like the stereotypical ugly american illustrated above.

[Zamo]

Peter,

Blah, blah, blah America sucks...Everybody hates America...

I get really tired of this self-perpetuating myth. I am American. I am proud of being American. I have travelled abroad many times and never hidden the fact and have NEVER encountered any anti American sentiment. On the opposite hand, in France, in Germany, in Belgium, in Austrailia, and elsewhere, I have NEVER encountered any of this alledged anti-American snobbery. I make friends where ever I go, because I am friendly, and not a snob myself. The golden rule, man...

I dreaded going to France, from what I had "heard", but I found the French people I met were all very friendly and helpful. I do not speak French, and it was clear to them that I didn't. However I did have a english-french dictionary, and did TRY to ask my questions in French...

Nationalism is dying fast people. Like it or not. Hating somebody because of their home nation is one of the fundimental reasons there are so many little white crosses. If you can't find it in your heart to judge someone on their own merits, then pity be unto you, oh small minded cretins. "Judge not, lest thee be judged yourself!"

By the way, when I was in the Hall of the unknowns at Verdun (where there are about 100,000 unknowns buried), it was someone with a commonwealth accent who was ignoring the "take off your hats and don't talk" rile, so idiocy is NOT purely an American value).

Zamo

[argie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Example:

In south american, (Argentina), which i have visited recently, I was told 'make sure they know you're a New Zealander, because they hate Americans' .. well i didn't talk to Argentinians about this, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. And why not? Argentina saw US intervention topple several democratically elected governments in the region, and I can't recall exactly, but the US might have supported the various dictators Argentina has experienced to some degree. Can you blame them then? Of course, it is stupid to then dislike all Americans, but it is -understandable-.

PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As argentinian I must agree with some of your points. But the argentines don't feels hate against all the US americans, as we don't hates all the british, both countries which we could hate easily if you looks at our history. The Argentina's people is smart enough (at least the most) to differentiate between people and government.

We are made from a mix of cultures and almost lacks our own culture as well , so, nobody feels hate face to face.

The mob is another thing. As in every country in the world, when too much people joins and the hard feelings are exposed, is better not being a yankee, or british, or (put your favorite here)

As in other countries, if you are polite and interested, the people treats you in a fine way.

Ariel

[argie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

Example:

In south american, (Argentina), which i have visited recently, I was told 'make sure they know you're a New Zealander, because they hate Americans' .. well i didn't talk to Argentinians about this, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. And why not? Argentina saw US intervention topple several democratically elected governments in the region, and I can't recall exactly, but the US might have supported the various dictators Argentina has experienced to some degree. Can you blame them then? Of course, it is stupid to then dislike all Americans, but it is -understandable-.

PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As argentinian I must agree with some of your points. But the argentines don't feels hate against all the US americans, as we don't hates all the british, both countries which we could hate easily if you looks at our history. The Argentina's people is smart enough (at least the most) to differentiate between people and government.

We are made from a mix of cultures and almost lacks our own culture as well , so, nobody feels hate face to face.

The mob is another thing. As in every country in the world, when too much people joins and the hard feelings are exposed, is better not being a yankee, or british, or (put your favorite here)

As in other countries, if you are polite and interested, the people treats you in a fine way.

Ariel

[aka_tom_w]

I predict this thread will be locked soon..

However before it is I wouldn't be a true blue Canadian if I did not point out that while back packing around the world (and this is MY personal experience) I met more than a few American back packers who were so proud to be Americans they stiched Canadian Flags on their back packs. Is this a rumour or and urban Myth? NO.

It happens all the time so that as travelers these individuals can be greeted and welcomed as Canadians, friendly, neutral and with almost not historical political baggage.

If this is not a testament to anti American sentiment outside the U.S. I don't know what is.

And as a Canadian this is "sort of" flattering

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

If people are "anti-american", whatever that might exactly mean, they are generally so for a reason. Of course, i'm not justifying such feelings, nor do i necesarily feel they are correct or not arrogant to think so, but i can certainly UNDERSTAND why people might be that way.

<snip>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmm, the ripe smell of prejudice and gross generalization...

From the examples that you give, one might expect the world to be anti-British, and anti-Australian and anti-New Zealander, for I have seen citizens of those countries behaving like absolute drunken, sex-crazed barbarians on the beaches of Marbella and Ios, throwing themselves off of Nelson's Column, and heaving their guts out on the streets of New York.

Oddly enough, I've rarely met a foreigner who spent any significant time in the United States who was "anti-american (sic), whatever that might exactly mean". Maybe that's because they've actually seen the reality of the country, rather than some soap opera, sound-bite, media-spun, propagandized version of it.

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Ethan

-----------

Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Keith]

ThomasJ, after your reading your post on the closed message thread, I must say as a Jew and as an American, that I find your comments to be extremely offensive. Your statement

that German Jews somehow brought the holocaust upon themselves by betraying Germany in WWI is utter balony, and your "sources" are purely revisionist Nazi propaganda. Furthermore, you references to "smug Jewish bankers" is beneath contempt, and is an excellent example of racist sterotyping. In your "apology" in this thread you wrap yourself in the American flag, trying to portray yourself as a patriot. But I for one am ashamed that someone like yourself is in the American military. Oh, and by the way, my grandparents fought honorably in WWII with the English army and my father served honorably as a colonel in the Air Force in Vietnam. Have you even ever interacted with a Jewish person?

For those on this message forum who seek further enlightment on how ordinary German people participated in the Final Solution, I recommend reading the book "Ordinary Men : Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland". This book shows that ordinary Germans, not self-selected SS troops, became killers. Get it at

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060995068/o/qid=961774082/sr=2-1/002-2670277-3933614

With regard to my personal feelings torwards Germans and Germany, I will quote a saying from the French resistance monument in Paris:

"Forgive but never Forget".

I tend to be generous, and I try to judge people as individuals. I have traveled to Germany and found Germans to be very polite and I found the country very attractive. On the other hand, I did not advertise the fact that I am Jewish.

Still, it disturbs me that people like Joseph Hieder (Sp?) of Austria can come into power and quite cleary shows how many Germans and Austrains refuse to acknowledge their responsiblity in the War. Also these countries behavior torwards imigrants (Turks and Slavs) is troubling.

[aka_tom_w]

I had a feeling it was going to come to this again. (re: previous post)

This thread is now sure to be locked up soon...

Lets all just get back to the game at hand.

Its a great game and all kinds of people like Keith and thomasJ can play it and have fun with it.

Why don't we re-focus on the game and how it works and WHY we love it so much.

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PawBroon]

No kidding but I thinking poor Tom is heading for a second closed thread in a row.

Anyway, seeing as we people are a bunch of different nationalities and that few of you have the chance to be french ( Don't shoot it was difficult to resist it) we should stay away from those political/cultural chats.

It's like insulting the Gods while in a storm on top of a hill and wearing a copper armor (Thanks Terry Pratchett...).

Brings bad luck and closed thread.

Marcel the dirty, arrogant and selfish french contributor.

PS: Every Smiley in this post had been screened for anti-early-CM-deliverism.

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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[Jochen2]

Sorry, sorry,

i didn´t want to bring up the old discussion again. To those people, who answered my posting - please, i´m not the best in english, so it´s difficult for me to express in english, what i wanted to say. I´ll do better in the future.

Please calm down! It´s combat mission, not politics.

But, i think i talk for the most germans, we (the germans) know what happend, and we don´t wanna have it back at all.

Greetings from Germany

Jochen

[il carabiniere]

knaust is right.

thomasj, you may be right in saying that winners usually write history, but think for a moment about a few FACTS:

- roughly six millions jews were killed in death camps, death marches, mass executions etc. Maybe the figure has been inflated somehow, you may disagree on the the actual count, but we are talking about huge numers of people, without any comparable precedent in human history.

- from a simply technical point of view, this mass murder has required the active co-operation of a very large number of executioners (Goldhagen's "willing executioners"). We are talking about hundreds of thousand, even though reliable statistics do not exist. Many of them were not Nazi party members, most did that "job" not because they were compelled but just because they felt they were doing the right thing. Many had a wife and children at home, but even then, some of them would not refrain from sending home the pictures of their victims (kids and women among them) being shot during the mass executions!

- how could that happen is a highly civilised, culturally and scientifically advanced country like Germany?

This is really the point.

Being ashamed or not being ashamed for what your grandfather or your grandfather's comrades did is of very little interest to me. What is important, instead, is understanding how a man and a political party were able to turn a significant portion of their citizens into murderers, and this in just a few years.

Only this would teach us some useful lessons, in order to avoid that history repeats itself.

Anyhow, I really think the thread should be closed because I really cannot see the logical link with BTS' beutiful game, but some of the sentences I have read here made me jump on my chair!

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S.Ten.® Lunari

[Dar]

Hey, there are around 300 million of us crazy Americans, so there are bound to be a few that are selfish and rude. Any person that hates an entire nationality/race/religion based on their experience with a few small-minded individuals is pretty #$*(@ small-minded himself.

If some Europeans want to hate Americans, please do it on an individual basis. And vice versa!

Dar

[Fionn]

Genocide has occured THROUGHOUT humanity's history. Genocide has occured against almost every ethnic group on this planet and almost every ethnic group on this planet has, at some time committed genocide. That goes for Germans, Jews, Uzbekhs, English, Irish etc.

The REAL problem is the rather charming but nonsensical need for most people to view the actions of Germany as an abberation. It wasn't an aberration. Spontaneous pogroms were common throughout Europe throughout history. In some of these pogroms thousands of Jews were killed or burned to death in a matter of days due to the boiling over of anti-semetic sentiment.

The ONLY difference between these spontaneous pogroms and the German Final Solution was that the Germany of 1940-45 possessed the industrial means and the bureaucracy to carry out this anti-semetic action in greater numbers and more efficiently than had been possible previously.

IF other nations had had the industry and bureaucracy in the past we could be talking about the Final Solution in England in the 1700s, in Poland in the 1800s or Paris in the 1900s or in Austria in the 1920s.

Genocide is NOT an aberration. It is quite common and only our fear of admitting that we could ALL participate in genocide if the proper "buttons" were pushed keeps most forum members from admitting this.

There was nothing aberrant about the Germans in 1940 or the Hutus in the early 90s or the Tutsis in late 90s or Serbs or Kosovar Albanians ( who are carrying out their own ethnic cleansing now that they're back in the country). All of these groups merely experienced a society-wide hatred for another ethnic group AND were presented with the opportunity and social conditions to exterminate that ethnic group. They took this opportunity AND if the same situation existed in our countries most of us could be involved in genocide also.

All you need is :

1. An identifiable "enemy"

2. Society-wide hatred for that enemy

3. Governmental collusion or acceptance of the genocide.

4. GAIN on the individual level for those participating in the genocide.

Combine hatred, individual greed and the surety that no repercussions will occur due to the genocide and people behave VERY predictably.. Most of them go out there and start killing.

It is no abberation that the majority of long-term genocides have been marked by the enrichment of those committing the genocide at the expense of those being killed. Genocides which are extinguished quickly generally lack this element of personal reward.

Anyways, my point is that:

1. Jews were disliked in Europe for many centuries.

2. Extermination on the scale of the Final Solution ONLY didn't happen at a previous time simply because the industrial background didn't exist to support such extermination.

3. Exterminations occured throughout history spontaneously and were only limited by the lack of the citizenry to lay their hands on Jews in other areas and kill them also.

Therefore, once mass transport, nation states run by a single bureaucracy and sufficient industrialisation to support the extermination of an entire ethnic group ( quite costly in monetary and opportunity cost terms) it became almost inevitable that Pogroms would grow in size. The Final Solution is no more than the largest and most organised pogrom we've ever seen.

My basic point here is that I :

a) don't like to see the revisionist theories being expounded which say that the Jews "got what they deserved". 5 Million ( I say 5 cause I don't agree with the 6 million figure) people can't "deserve" to die merely because of their ethnic background or their fiscal condition.

I don't like people treating the murder of Jews as "that German disease".

c) I don't like people thinking that the Hollocaust was a once off. There have been more hollocausts in recent years which have claimed almost as many people as the Final Solution and which began under virtually the same climate as the Final Solution.

Extermination of one's "enemies" is a primal human urge. So long as an entire population can identify a single "enemy" to hate, have governmental approval for their actions ( minimally there must be governmental non-interference.. maximally governmental collusion will help the extermination occur speedily and efficiently) AND achieve some personal gain through murdering this "enemy" then we're going to see ethnic groups within the same country butchering eachother.

It is COMMON and understandable human behaviour and NOT an abberation. It is purely because we view it as an abberation that such mass genocides are still occuring freely throughout the world. People need to open their eyes and see the world and its people as they really are if they want to prevent the causes of genocide.

[rich12545]

how could that happen is a highly civilised, culturally and scientifically advanced country like Germany?

Not only Germany but almost every occupied country. How could it happen? How about virulent anti-semitism dictated by the Catholic and Lutheran churches for centuries. Hitler found willing ears for his "final solution."