German release version?

[Zamo]

I did a search, but was unable to find anything. I'm sure this question has been asked before, please forgive me anyhow.

Will there be a German version of this game released and how will it differ from the English version? I know things like Swastika's and mention of certain units are very verbotten in Deutschland to this day. Will the German version have Waffen SS units? Will the Swastika's be replaced by some other national ensign? Or, as a historical simulation, do you guys have some leeway? Are you even planning on doing a version for Heinz and Fritz?

Christain Sehmel

Seattle

[Guest Capt_Manieri]

Well, I guess just as long as you live in America you are guaranteed to get one. But, no. I don't think they'll be putting a version of the game auf Deutsch. Sorgen sie sich nicht. Sie sprechen Englisch sehr gut! Warum benotigt ein eine Version auf Deutsch? Eine Deutsche Version wurde zeitraubender sein, fur die Software-Entwickler zu bilden.

[DesertFox]

Oje Mr. Manieri

Da müssen wir aber noch eine Menge lernen wie? Na ja wird schon werden

To put it simple BTS has no need to produce a "special" german version. The reason is simple: The game isn´t sold in germany

And games that aren´t sold in germany don´t have to obey german laws

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/

[Moon]

Actually, there is already a German beta demo which is available for download over here with the Swastikas removed (basically the only problem with legality that CM could run into as far as I can see). Since doing a German version means only swapping two or three BMP files, I think it's quite likely that there will be one.

[Fionn]

To which I state that CMHQ will host the flag files which might be missing from the German version

To all German government officials reading this please note that this won't be so German players can play the game as god intended .. Oh no... this will merely be to allow owners of the game in countries OTHER THAN Germany to download these files if they get corrupted .

On the other hand if German owners of CM choose to download these files then CMHQ would be unable to stop them and would be truly shocked that gamers would try to break a stupid law (snigger).

Stupid Laws...

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Zamo]

Hauptmann Manieri,

Mein Englisch ist gut, als ich bin ein amerikanisches. Ich wohne in Seattle, wie ich am ende meines post sagen. Ich fragte bildlich, lediglich aus Neugier heraus.

I applaud whole-heartidly your concern for our German Kommeraden, Fionn, and must endorse without reservation your decision to provide such bitmaps, for "archival" purposes. It's amazing how often these things become corrupted, nicht wahr?

I have always been annoyed at games and models with missing or altered graphics. Don't change history, learn from it!

Christian Sehmel

IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON, Where we have a woosie mayor...

[DesertFox]

Hehe Fionn,

I knew you plan something special, eh?

Actually, I´d say "Ohne Kläger keine Klage" ( no suit without a plaintiff )

But anyways, good idea to have a backup of some eminent important files. LOL

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/

[Fionn]

Yes, certain, very specific files need to be protected in case of "corruption".. I just hope no Germans find out about this offer and "take advantage" of our kindness LOL

That really would be terrible... (tongue stuck so firmly in cheek it is almost protruding through it )

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Maschendrahtzaun]

This thread bothers me. I do not understand how one bitmap picture in a game can so important. Only Germans must worry about this symbol. What interest is it of others that Germans be able to download this image? I can draw my own if I want it. I think this emphasis on this picture is wrong. Germany has their laws and that is that.

People here have made a great argument because of people in countries where piracy is OK want to pirate CM. Why then this desire to go around German law? Why encourage Germans to break the law?

I personally do not need to see swastikas to feel I am playing a realistic game. CM is a game. It is not an historical artifact.

For people who want super-realism I suggest to look into the real German flag in WWII. Weimer Germany never had an official flag and NS Germany never made this NS flag official. The actual real German flag was still the black red and white bars of the old reich.

[MarkEzra]

I don't think that German Laws should be characterized out of hand as stupid. Nazi symbolism no longer represents the German people nor there government. The one country that came to terms with it's dark side is Germany. They have laws which may seem stupid to some but are important to the German nation. My Jewish wife feels anger when she sees a Swastika on a madmans forehead, the wall of a synagog, or a wargame. If I can change to the iron cross I will certainly do so

[Guest phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I do not understand how one bitmap picture in a game can so important.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you get the idea that the bitmap is "so important"?????? This is the first thread I've seen on the topic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why then this desire to go around German law? Why encourage Germans to break the law?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Encourage them? Are we dealing with children here or adults who can make decisions on their own?

It's a damn BITMAP just like you said. It's not Nazi propaganda. The symbol is part of history. Period. It was an insignia that was on some vehicles. Period. Do you want to pretend it wasn't?

And really, how is it breaking the law? Is it against the law for a private citizen in Germany to download a picture of a swastika??

Is it illegal for them to change a file on their computer? Will the police arrive at the house and confiscate the computer should some "informant" let them know what is going on? Please.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I personally do not need to see swastikas to feel I am playing a realistic game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's great for YOU.

Others may want to see the historically accurate insignia. You don't want it, you don't download it.

Now THAT is simple.

[DesertFox]

Hey Guys

Calm down please. The fact of showing a Swastika or SS-Runes isn´t worth to get nasty.

Since this game isn´t sold or supposed to be advertised in germany this discussion is pointless.

Even if german gamers get a censored version and have to download some bitmaps it is their own decision and with doing so they are doing nothing illegal or are violating any laws.

CM isn´t a game that reenacts ideologies for a good reason, please stop to drift into a political correctness discussion.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/

[Fionn]

Guys,

Some adult, mature, responsible German players might want to play the exact same version as the rest of the world. If I can help them do that then I will.

My opinion is that just because something is a law does not make it right. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the "rightness" or not of the law BUT I will state that this isn't going to be something which neo-nazis or something will benefit from. It is merely something that conscientious gamers can do if they wish.

I am NOT encouraging anything. If a file is there it is the person's choice to download or not to download it. They must decide this for themselves... The same goes for stealing etc. If a car is there it isn't an encouragement to rob it .

Mark, while your wife has reason to get mad she should also realise that a swastika on a synagogue or a neo-nazis forehead is put there to enrage whilst a swastika in a game is merely a representation of historical fact.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Seeing swastikas along with the violence that it caused is actually an anti war statement.

The lesson to be learned is that the war caused human loss. When the battle is over, the causualties have dissapeared except the forbidden flags.

There's a lesson to be learned from that.

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 01-07-2000).]

[MarkEzra]

Fionn: How my wife feels is how she feels. She doesn't need my advice nor anyone elses on the subject of Swastikas.

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My Jewish wife feels anger when she sees a Swastika...If I can change to the iron cross I will certainly do so<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can do that even if she didn't feel anger. You don't even need a reason. You could be just as happy with the game as is.

[Fionn]

Mark,

I wasn't giving any advice. I was giving my opinion as to how it should be viewed. I KNOW how set wives can be in their ways ... I honestly think mine has changed an opinion in the face of incontrevertible proof ever . Women hehe

No offence intended. I understand why she might feel that way. Mightn't agree with it as regards this instance but understand why she might feel this way towards this symbol.

[MarkEzra]

We married guys should stick together. LOL

THEGAME (as I call it) is always a history lession...and as PBEM, sometimes just a lession...LOL

[Maschendrahtzaun]

Why is it so necessary that swastikas be in this game? Do you really think German soldiers held up a NS flag when they captured an important place? This is a game marker we are talking about. It is not a real flag. What value is there in using this flag?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Others may want to see the historically accurate insignia. You don't want it, you don't download it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I won't. But I still do not understand this need to have this little bitmap. I already showed this flag is wrong.

Wolfenstein 3D was full of these symbols. Did that make it a better game?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And really, how is it breaking the law? Is it against the law for a private citizen in Germany to download a picture of a swastika??

Is it illegal for them to change a file on their computer? Will the police arrive at the house and confiscate the computer should some "informant" let them know what is going on? Please.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chnaging a file is not illegal. Importing NS symbols using the internet is. Do you understand? The chance people will be caught is low. The chance pirates will be caught in Singapore is also low. Is that OK too?

Some adult, mature, responsible German players might want to play the exact same version as the rest of the world. If I can help them do that then I will.

My opinion is that just because something is a law does not make it right. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the "rightness" or not of the law BUT I will state that this isn't going to be something which neo-nazis or something will benefit from. It is merely something that conscientious gamers can do if they wish.

I am NOT encouraging anything. If a file is there it is the person's choice to download or not to download it. They must decide this for themselves... The same goes for stealing etc. If a car is there it isn't an encouragement to rob it .[/quote)

Do you mean that mature gamers will wnat this flag and other will not? Or that if people do not care for this picture they are imature?

neo Nazi benefit from the picture has nothng to do with the law.

I think making the picture available is "encouraging." -- I have this file. You can download it. Winky smiley face. He he ha ha.

[Guest phoenix]

Maschendrahtzaun, we will never agree on this. You live in a country that has some laws that dictate what you can and can't buy. Apparently that is ok by you. As an American I find that totally unreasonable. Regardless of Germany's history. My view is that the government has no business deciding what games I can buy or what symbols are displayed on them.

Im afraid that I would like to see the US's First Amemendment extended to all countries.

[Fionn]

1. It is THEIR decision to download or not.

2. I think it is morally more correct to disobey laws one does not agree with than it is to be cowed by them.

Remember that Martin Luther King, Ghandi and many others broke many, many laws. In fact they purposely broke laws to show how ridiculous those laws were.

I'm not comparing myself to them BUT I am saying that I see what I view as a reprehensible law restricting the rights of conscientious adults and I amn't going to sit by and do nothing about it IF I have the power to do anything about it.

This ties into my whole life view wherein if I SEE something wrong occuring I WILL step in and try to help prevent it AND ties in with why I AM (still am) so dissapointed by the majority of forum members unwillingness to do anything about what I feel was unacceptable behaviour directed at me on this forum.

As for the portion where you say "Do you mean that mature gamers will wnat this flag and other will not? Or that if people do not care for this picture they are imature?"

That's just putting words in my mouth, misinterpreting them and then seeking to take offence at something I didn't say.

What I am saying is that I am glad to help mature, conscientious gamers who want these files. I am NOT saying that only mature, conscientious gamers want these files and am not saying that anyone who doesn't want these files is immature etc.

Lastly, I simply don't agree with the law. I disagree with it to such an extent that I feel it is a "bad law" and as such amn't willing to obey it.

Remember that disobedience of a law CAN simply mean the law is bad. People who disobeyed segregationist laws in America only 40 years ago risked jail yet I hope no-one here today would argue that those laws were "good laws". Those laws are other examples of "bad laws" and people who chose to disobey them helped destroy the legalised racism in America at the time.

I think the German censorship laws are, in the main, "bad laws" and it would be good to see them destroyed. I amn't going to devote my time to destroying them (I have better things to do like playing CM ) BUT I certainly amn't going to sit on my ass and let them be applied if I can sit on my ass and provide good people with the censored files.

Listen, if you want to obey those laws then that is fine. I'm simply saying that I agree with those in your country who would like to play the game as their compatriots in other countries play it.

Want to label me a criminal and censor me for that? IIRC that's something the NSDAP did to people who disagreed with its "bad laws". Perhaps Germany hasn't come as far as it thinks as regards freedom? Now THERE is a little something for you to think about

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Mark IV]

When the smoke clears from all the above, I would really appreciate a phonetic pronunciation for "amn't".

PS: The First Amendment (and the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights) is so cool, it's one of the VERY short list of things I regard as holy. The notion of a forbidden bitmap is, well, foreign (would a JPEG be considered a loophole ?).

[Das Boot]

What would the punishment be, if you were caught playing the illegal CM i Germany anyway?

Would the judge bring out the ruler and smack you with it, fine you or throw you in jail?

[Major Tom]

Sorry if this has already been pointed out, but, the flag used in CM is the German National flag for that era. They didn't use the old Black, White and Red, or the later Black, Yellow and Red. Air recognition for many German Army tanks was a spread out Swastika. Indeed, the sign is only after the fall of Hitler seen to be an evil device. It is still used by some Budists (I think). It is a religious sign, a national sign. The same argument can be used for putting on the Hammer and Sicle for the Rrussians in CM2. Maybe Russia won't allow it and demand the Red Blue and White Flag? However, my loose following of Russian politics shows that the Communist Party still has much support.

Actually, Americans do and or did, have laws on things that they can and cannot purchase, see, listen to, or do in the privacy of their own homes. You cannot purchase anything from Cuba (Cuban Cigars) and some books and musical styles were illegal. Any hint of someone forming a Union was met by organized violence in the name of Anti-Communism. Some American towns cancelled free concerts by a female lesbian group, even though the response by teens was overwealmingly for it. American's think that us in Canada are practically Communists because of our mixed Capitalist/Socialist Government and Economy.

Possibly laws restricting things people can by are good things? The Swastika may have not been an evil device 60 years ago, but, because of the Nazi's it now is, no matter what it's original purpose was. The Japanese are now working on getting back the Rising Sun for their national flag. This was a flag representative of the domination of the Pacific and Southeast Asia. Possibly the equivalent to the German Swastika in the eyes of their victims.

Some censorship is needed. Just look at what is on TV. There are just so many shows about real life criminals in action, buildings and disasters, even people's deaths. "THE BEST PART WAS WHEN THE BUILDINGS FELL DOWN! Yeah, maybe someone got hurt? YEAH!" A&E used to be my favorite TV channel, but, now it is just like FOX TV. I went to see a movie a couple weeks ago, "Duce Biggalo, Male Giggalo". It was basically washroom humour, indeed, much of it took place in a washroom, but, I was surprised at the violence and sexual content, and the average age of the kids in the theatre. It must have been 80% of unacompanied youths below the age of 16. I am flipping through TV during the daytime and am finding channels showing movies with full frontal nudity! WHERE WAS THIS WHEN I WAS YOUNG!!!! DAMN IT!!!

I fully support Fionn and him allowing people to have a choice on this matter. The Nazi flag in CM isn't a big deal. People won't buy CM to play the Nazi's fighting against the 'impure horde'! We have to separate history from politics. If something happened in history we cannot just ignore it, we have to learn from it. Also, everyone who stated that they wanted to play the Germans stated this as so because of their kool equipment, not because of the Nazi philosophy.

Compared to most of the world, America, Germany, Canada, , Australia, New Zealand, France, England, indeed all of Western, Southern and Northern Europe are very free societies. We are arguing about technicalities here, Africa, Asia, South/Central America, Russia, Eastern Europe and the Middle East are all in such horrible states of freedom. The most we have to worry about is fines and imprisonment. In these nations you can lose your and your family and friend's life for having the difference of opinion. Let us all be thankful.

[Moon]

Phoenix - did you know that the law which makes NS symbols illegal in Germany has been introduced by the Allies after the war?

Anyway, although the law remains unchanged, it is much less strictly enforced now than years ago. It is much easier now for moviemakers, for example, to get the original symbols into their movies, even if the movies are not historical. Just saw "Blues Brothers" a few days ago - a few years ago the section about the american Nazis would have been cut out.

Unfortunately, PC games are regarded as pure entertainment only, and it's impossible to get the OK to display NS symbols.

Theoretically, since the game will be sold over the internet, BTS and BF.C would not have to care much about German laws. However, if you want to get reviews in magazines and possibly some advertising over here, you have to have a legal game. And don't underestimate the German over here - I know some wargames (well, at least one) which sold better in Germany alone than in the USA.