German release version?

[Maschendrahtzaun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. I think it is morally more correct to disobey laws one does not agree with than it is to be cowed by them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean this to support a principle. But this can be interpreted to be anarchist. Again I point to the fellow of singapore who will pirate CM because he will not pay the full cost. You don't believe he is morally correct do you? He is not cowed by the copyright laws.

Phoenix,

You are right we will never agree. You think this law is unreasonable. I think it is unreasonable to want swastikas in a wargame where there should not be them. These VL flags are arbitrary parts of the game. No real commander could see such a thing. I think to be realistic it is better to use some other symbol. A unit flag or symbol would be better. Why not just have the balkankreuz for germans, the star for the amis and the circle thing (cockade?) for the others. Every nation has one. I would like many symbols to represent many units, but this may hurt the fog of war.

If BTS had not put in the flags then this would never be an issue. Would you argue to put the national flags in? Do you really think they are needed?

Major,

I think it is the hindus that use the swastika. It is supposed to bring luck. The Finns also used this swastika but it is different it is not angled liked the NS one. Now they don't use it anymore.

In the US is there not this problem with the flag of the confederates?

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the US is there not this problem with the flag of the confederates?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. I see them almost every day... and I live in the North!

[Mark IV]

The swastika was also an ancient American Indian device, and was used by Navajo units in the US Army. There was a US Army unit shoulder patch circa 1925- the unit escapes me now, someone here will know, or I'll look it up- bearing a red swastika.

Indian units voluntarily discontinued use of the swastika as Nazism's tenets became generally known.

I prefer the symbol's inclusion in the game. It's supposed to be symbolic of VL ownership, and what fills the role better?

Incidentally, I could not fathom (and I don't think I would buy) an American Civil War game that represented the South with anything BUT a rebel flag. And I'm a Yankee.

[M Hofbauer]

hi y'all,

haven't been around for a while. was just stepping by to see if there's any info on the release date of CM (btw the game runs fine by now).

what an interesting thread. Much said, and much I would like to comment on. In "historic order" (no pun intended):

Desert Fox:

Actually, I´d say "Ohne Kläger keine Klage" ( no suit without a plaintiff )

actually, I know it as "wo kein Kläger da kein Richter" (where there's no plaintiff there's no judge) but yours is true just as well. BUT - it applies only to civil suits, sort of. It's called "Legalitätsprinzip", it means that the Strafverfolgungsbehörden (Polizei und StA), the administrative/government responsible for persecuting criminal acts, *have* to investigate and bring to court any illegalities; this is opposed to the so-called Antragsdelikte which are only dealt with if someone (usually the injured party) applies for governmental action. The laws concerning the swastikas at hand are in public interest and therefore independant of the plaintiffs in above's proverb, but admit that it still holds true as regards the fact that if nobody notices /brings to the attention of the authorities, then of course there's no lawsuit.

phoenix:

And really, how is it breaking the law? Is it against the law for a private citizen in Germany to download a picture of a swastika??

yes, it is. Import of symbols of anticonstitutional organizations. §86a I Nr.2 StGB. Maximum

penalty three years prison.

Is it illegal for them to change a file on their computer?

yes.

Will the police arrive at the house and confiscate the computer should some "informant" let them know what is going on?

yes.

Desert Fox:

Even if german gamers get a censored version and have to download some bitmaps it is their own decision and with doing so they are doing nothing illegal or are violating any laws.

incorrect. It is said downloading of nazisymbols which constitutes an import (=introduction into the jurisdiction of the german criminal law) in the sense of §86a Abs.1 Nr.2 3.Alt. StGB that is illegal and carries a penalty of up to three years.

I admit though that in the isolated case of a gamer that negligently fails to comprehend what he's doing and simply DL's a game, as a first time offender he would be simply fined or the court might even consider not fining him inaccordance with §86a III i.V.m. §86 IV StGB (negligable guilt). But I wouldn't count on it.

Fionn:

My opinion is that just because something is a law does not make it right.

LOL...well, I guess you are right, it's just that literally it's not true, because actually law officially defines what is right and what is wrong. But I know that you mean official law versus morally/ethically right, because later you write "Remember that Martin Luther King, Ghandi and many others broke many, many laws. In fact they purposely broke laws to show how ridiculous those laws were." Still, I wouldn't advise a single citizen to break a law if he feels it is wrong. Laws usually aren't made without some reasoning behind it, and chances are, simply breaking it will not help you. If a law is wrong, the citizen has means to topple the law, in germany e.g the constitutional complaint to our federal constitutional court, it's free and surely a better way than simply breaking it (if you break it, of course in a court case resulting out of your offence you would still "incidentally" (technically speaking) review the law in question by the constitutional court.

If a car is there it isn't an encouragement to rob it

yes and no. If you leave it unlocked, it is considered to be an encouragement and the insurance company will not have to pay you.

Maschendrahtzaun:

Chnaging a file is not illegal. Importing NS symbols using the internet is. Do you understand? The chance people will be caught is low.

agree with the objective content of your first sentences (btw, cool nick *g*, but shouldn't it be "Moschn-drohd-zäun" ? ;o) ) Otherwise, re. probability of being caught, I am not sure on all this. It is hard to make a prediction on how official reaction is. chances are, and that's how it should be, that they don't care about it at all. then again, every once in a while some over-eager district attorney has his McCarthy-fit and goes to great lengths. Even then, the technical abilities vary from state to state. I think, technically they would be able to intercept/filter any downloads into germany from BTS' servers, also we repeatedly had cases were ISPs were forced by court rule to supply their connection protocols which would be automatically searched for any conections to BTS. But I think the probability of it happening in reality is limes 0.

The chance pirates will be caught in Singapore is also low. Is that OK too?

I wasn't aware that singapore would have such lenient copyright laws. Personally I always thought singapore had about the toughest laws around for anything.

phoenix:

As an American I find that totally unreasonable. Regardless of Germany's history. My view is that the government has no business deciding what games I can buy or what symbols are displayed on them.

hmm...but your country has restrictions, too. I remember I once (like, 10 yrs. ago) knew an american SSgt who lived in the neighbourhood. He was fascinated by german TV commercials. He was fascinated by bare woman breasts. he said they would never have anything like that in the States. I was puzzled why not.

Im afraid that I would like to see the US's First Amemendment extended to all countries.

most, actually practically all, countries have a constitutional right equivalent to your first amendment. In germany, it is the articles 2 I (general freedon to do anything you want) and 5 I (freedom of speech etc.) GG. Thing is, just like in your country, that right is not unlimited, rather it is restricted by other peoples' rights. Like, my freedom to say a bad word to you would be limited by your right to have your personality respected (this resulting in the institution of the criminal prohibit of insult).

here, you have to weigh an individual's interest in having swastikas displayed on your computer versus the feared / perceived by the government problems of A) insulting victims of the Nazi regime by having post-war germ,an public have these ssymbols go unpunished, having children become accustomed to a symbology they should be wary of by having it also displayed on toys and games wetc. pp. The democratically elected body parliament decided against the former (interest of player to have it displayed) and for the latter, introducing a law that banned the usage of that Nazi symbology.

Fionn:

This ties into my whole life view wherein if I SEE something wrong occuring I WILL step in

and try to help prevent it

it's nice to see that you are such a person of principle, and I mean it honestly (and I know Fionn that you know it). I used to be that way, but somehow have dulled. I just don't have the energy anymore to fight against every injustrice I find every day. It's a sisyphos thing. I just don't care anymore most of the time, it's just too much. Every once in a while, I feel like one has to resist, but most of the time, I just don't care anymore even if I feel injustice (the parking ticket, e.g.). It used to be I almost couldn't sleep when I perceived injustice. Nowadays I just say "oh well...". It's sad, actually.

AND ties in with why I AM (still am) so dissapointed by the

majority of forum members unwillingness to do anything about what I feel was

unacceptable behaviour directed at me on this forum.

haven't been around too long it seems, I am most interested, what happened? Did somebody insult/flame you?

Fionn:

I'm not comparing myself to them BUT I am saying that I see what I view as a reprehensible law restricting the rights of conscientious adults and I amn't going to sit by and do nothing about it IF I have the power to do anything about it.

Lastly, I simply don't agree with the law. I disagree with it to such an extent that I feel it is a "bad law" and as such amn't willing to obey it.

but do you think it's up to every single person to judge whether a law is "good" or "bad" and consequently whether it should be obeyed or not? clearly not, we are not to judge, what if the murderer was up to decide whether law applies to him or not? as long as we have other means of questioning a law, we should not simply break it. If that law existed in Ireland, would you think the same way?

if your answer is "no", then that would mean you simply don't respect the customs of another country.

if your answer is "yes" then you have my respect but you live dangerous, dontcha ever let them get you ;o)

I think the German censorship laws are, in the main, "bad laws" and it would be good to

see them destroyed.

from the previous you might get the impression that I am vehemently infavor of those laws. Let me tell you that I was very much thinking along the same lines as Fionn, even more. it was back when I was younger, had more time and was building plastic scale models. Here I was, working for half a year to a year on some superdetailed, superauthentic, superresearched 1:72 scale Fw-190A-8 or Me 109 F-4/b, but then it would have a bland rudder without the Luftwaffe swastika (mind you, it was there as a national identification symbol, as the official german national symbol, not as some Nazi party insignia). I mean, realism and all, stenciled maintenance decals and such, yet a major element of the aircraft was missing. I found out the reason you couldn't obtain them in germany (they were cut out from the decal sheets in the kits) was due to that law that prohibited nazi symbology. I was enraged.

I even found a supreme court rule (BGH 28,397) where Matchbox was convicted of §86a because their aircraft plastic model kits PK-171 and PK-83 had swastika decals in them (this was 1979). Being a serious modeler I was enraged even further about them calling the model kits "toys".

Only with age ;o) am I now able to understand fully how they meant it. Seeing them as toys, they didn't want children to grow up, becoming accustomed and uncritical to the symbols on their favorite toys. Had the kits been small, limited production run high-price models, they wouldn't have been called toys and consequently it would've been ok to include the decals.

I see their point, although I am still not sure if that law is ok. It is only ok to display nazi symbology in a socially adequate context, such as scientific-historical etc.

Having them in a game is clearly not ok since game=entertainment ~ toy in their reasoning.

Personally, I have come to live with it, I just don't really care anymore. If I still had the time to do serious modelling, I would probably try to obtain the decals buying them over the internet from some overseas hobby shop. If for some unfathomable reason it would be intercepted and I were accused of importing nazi symbols, I would have the opportunity I always wanted to point out the flaws in the old court rule, maintaining that since it is a historical, authentic model striving for absolute realism, it is not a toy, rather a historical piece of reproduction etc. I would, however, be hard pressed to defend myself would I be caught importing what these overly liberal ppl would surely call a "nazi game" (which it clearly isn't but I guess you get my poit about them jumping at the swastika).

Want to label me a criminal and censor me for that? IIRC that's something the NSDAP did

to people who disagreed with its "bad laws".

Fionn, every country/society labels someone who breaks it's laws a criminal, that's how a criminal is defined. It's not an NSDAP thing.

Perhaps Germany hasn't come as far as it thinks as regards freedom? Now THERE is a little something for you to think about

Fionn, I think this is not fair. I think *you* know very well (I know you do ;o) ) about the history of germany, and I think it befits it good to be very self-conscious about it. Part of that is having laws that limit the careless use of national socialistic symbology. You might be for it or against it, but we still have a lot of freedom even w/o being able to have swastikas displayed on bumper stickers. Try to see it this way: if you were living in a neighbouring country that was a victim of german terror regime, like, Poland, or the czech republic, or if you were a jew who lost family under the germans, how would you think if the germans didn't have such special rules regarding the use of that very symbology that stands for german teror and their suffering?

DasBoot:

What would the punishment be, if you were caught playing the illegal CM i Germany anyway?

Would the judge bring out the ruler and smack you with it, fine you or throw you in jail

technically, the maximum penalty would be three years of jail. However, as I pointed out above, this would never be exercised in reality. If you were just a casual gamer, with no nazi or criminal background, and just so happen to be caught playing a game that has Nazi symbols in it, my best guess is that either

a) in accordance with §153 StPO the district attorney would not further pursue your case "due to negligable guilt" if he thinks what you did was not bad enough to warrant a court case

he would acc. to §153a StPO not further pursue the case if you paid a small fine (thinking it was bad enough to warrant some kind of reprimand but not a court case)

c) acc. to §86 IV StGB the court would decide to not further pursue the case if they are convinced your guilt is negligible

d) you'ld be convicted of §86a II StGB and be given a fine (i theory § 40 StGB anything from 10 DM to 3.65 Mio DM ;o) )

any of the above, jail is clearly not an option.

Major Tom:

Indeed, the sign is only after the fall of Hitler seen to be an evil device. It is still used by some Budists (I think). It is a religious sign, a national sign.

what you are referring to, the oriental sign of good luck etc., clearly differs from the Nazi swastika in that the Nazi swastika is slanted, while the religious symbol is right. This differentiation was done intentionally by Hitler himself, who created the Nazi party flag hinmself in 1921 or 1922 IIRC.

Whatever it's origins, it is now ladden with associations stemming from the Third Reich. Finland had made use of the swastika as a national symbol, totally free from any ideological meaning, long before the Nazis used it. However, after WW II they decided although their insignia had nothing to do with the Nazis, they discontinued it because it would remind ppl of the Nazi swastika.

btw. indeed Major Tom you are right when you say that there are restrictions in the US, too. If one is used to certain restricions, they don't appear as such to him, while the restricions of other societies are unfamiliar to him and therefore he perceives them as restricting freedom that he is used to.

Moon:

Anyway, although the law remains unchanged, it is much less strictly enforced now than years ago. It is much easier now for moviemakers, for example, to get the original symbols into their movies, even if the movies are not historical. Just saw "Blues Brothers" a few days ago - a few years ago the section about the american Nazis would have been cut out.

one of the exceptions to the general prohibit on the use of nazi symbology is according to §86 III any "piece of art". Movies could be considered works of art (movie directors would argue that they are ;o) ), and indeed movies are exempt from the prohibit, as long as the movie isn't showing the symbology in some attempt at glorifying the Third Reich or so.

Unfortunately, PC games are regarded as pure entertainment only, and it's impossible to

get the OK to display NS symbols.

Indeed, agree with you. Maybe, some day in the future, the law will be revised, if ppl feel there is no need for it anymore (but looking at the former GDR which consists to a frightening large part of skinhead youth I doubt it).

Theoretically, since the game will be sold over the internet, BTS and BF.C would not have to care much about German laws.

I am not too sure. If they actively, knowingly sold the game containing NS symbols to germans, one could argue they would, how do you say, "aid and abet" the crime the german did by importing the game. Same would apply to Fionn with his honorable intention of providing the files for germans for DL. Of course, they'ld be safe as long as they don't set a foot on german soil. Again, I am not a specialist on thses things. Not sure how real the persecution of internet "crime" such as this is, if anybody even cares about this at all. Might innocently ask a colleague district attorney about this (generally asking about a theoretical problem involving internet etc. ;o) ), and make sure that whenever he visits me, I'll have my CM hidden ;o)

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK, I think that M.Hofbauer tied up things so nicely that I am going to close up this thread before things get out of hand.

Our official stance on this is that we are not going to sell anything to Germany that is in any way illegal. We feel that the only potential element of CM that could be is the swastikas. Therefore, no matter what happens we are only talking about including or leaving out the swastika bitmaps.

Personally, we feel Germany's laws as they are applied to CM don't really don't have any merit (BTW we probably have more neo Nazis in the US and Canada than in Germany). However, because we don't want to fall on the wrong side of the law in Germany, which would make things tough on us AND our German customers, we are going to do what we have to so that CM complies. We have no choice as the Internet and our US citizenship can not be hidden behind. If CM were to be found in violation of German laws, *ALL* Battlefront.com products shiped to Germany could be stopped in customs (in theory of course).

The exact method of how we are going to deal with this is still being kicked about, but we can not ignore reality. Lesson #1 -> don't dick around with goverments because when push comes to shove they can, and will, burry you.

Steve