One More Time

[Dr. Brian]

For anyone that has been alientated by my anti-Nazi beliefs, I apologize. Additionally, for the "disruption" it has caused to this forum.

I can't believe I'm apologizing for being anti-Nazi, but I don't want to take away from the game, nor anyones enjoyment.

Play the game.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Guest mch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For anyone that has been alientated by my anti-Nazi beliefs, I apologize. Additionally, for the "disruption" it has caused to this forum.

I can't believe I'm apologizing for being anti-Nazi, but I don't want to take away from the game, nor anyones enjoyment.

Play the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dr.Brian,

While waiting for turns to come to my mailbox,I've been following this little saga

of yours,and have the following comments:

As a "new guy",who pobably hasn't read the wealth of posts on this forum,Your posturing

and accusations read as ill-informed and arrogant.Hell,try a user search on Delta Charlie 228..for chirst's sakes!

Secondly,I haven't seen anyone attack you

for being "anti-nazi".Only for your opinon

of military history(ie.relative strenghts of forces,etc...)

One More Time.

Just shut up about it!

[howardb]

Hey Brian no problem. Let's calm down and discuss the game

You're all intelligent people so I can't understand why we can't moderate ourselves a bit. You a WW2 buff yourself or ?

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mch:

Secondly,I haven't seen anyone attack you

for being "anti-nazi".Only for your opinon

of military history(ie.relative strenghts of forces,etc...)

Just shut up about it!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anything else I did "wrong?"

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Guest Mirage2k]

Dr. Brian, this is a completely honest, nothing-between-the-lines suggestion.

When you post an apology, try to make it sarcasm-free.

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

When you post an apology, try to make it sarcasm-free.

-Andrew

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andrew, please point out the sarcasm, and I will remove it.

Everything I wrote, I do feel. If someone is interpreting something as sarcasm, make it known.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Guest aka PanzerLeader]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can't believe I'm apologizing for being anti-Nazi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to.

[Guest machineman]

I could be wrong but from reading the threads some people disagree with your military ideas (hey, big deal, that's what a forum is for), but it's your anti-german ideas that are really rubbing people the wrong way. Racism (anti German, anti Jew, anti Pole, anti Black, anti whatever-group-of-people-you care-to-name) isn't as cool as it was 50 years ago.

Well, that is actually quite encouraging for our world today isn't it?!

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by machineman:

but it's your anti-german ideas that are really rubbing people the wrong way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay. Let me state, for the record, you (German or otherwise) are judged as the individual you are. How you treat me, and others.

Anything else (no sarcasm intended)?

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

For anyone that has been alientated by my anti-Nazi beliefs, I apologize...I can't believe I'm apologizing for being anti-Nazi, .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good grief. Why do you automatically assume it's your anti-nazi beliefs that have upset people?

Newsflash: nobody has anything against your anti-nazi beliefs. 99.9% of the people here are anti-nazis and are against everything they stood for. Almost everyone on this forum shares your thoughts on being anti-nazi, myself included.

The problem is your categorizing almost 3/4ths of this forum as being pro-nazi. Heck, you even said I was pro-nazi.

Apologize for that, not for being anti-nazi.

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Scarlet Pimpernel:

Heck, you even said I was pro-nazi.

Apologize for that, not for being anti-nazi.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must of been the heat of the moment when I said pro-Nazi, when you called me a racist, and made insults about intellegince, etc.

I'm man enough to say it. Sorry for calling you a Nazi. Can you say I'm sorry for the diatribes (written and "suggested") in your posts?

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Must of been the heat of the moment when I said pro-Nazi, when you called me a racist, and made insults about intellegince, etc.

I'm man enough to say it. Sorry for calling you a Nazi. Can you say I'm sorry for the diatribes (written and "suggested") in your posts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for the harsh words.

[Dr. Brian]

Anyone else, please... let me know.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[L.Tankersley]

First of all, thanks to those that participated in the monster thread I created and kept it, on the whole, civil. In the hope of possibly laying this issue to rest for a while, I want to make a couple of points. It should be obvious that these are my opinions, nothing more, and you are free to disagree if you choose. There's probably no point arguing about it; you're not going to convince me otherwise, and it seems unlikely I would convince you.

First off, Dr. Brian, I don't think there's anyone here that's offended by anti-Nazi sentiments. I will say that you come across fairly heavy-handed and a bit arrogant, whether that's your intent or not (and you'd hardly be the first person on this forum I'd describe that way), and I think that's part of what has put some people off. The other element is your seeming to take the position (again, whether intentionally or not) that anyone that uses a Germanic or Nazi/SS-related handle or who asserts an opinion about superiority of German forces is pro-Nazi, or that every German during WWII was pro-Nazi or sympathetic to the racism and other crimes perpetrated by the Nazi regime.

I started the monster thread ("Germans, Nazis and SS -- oh, my!) to try to confirm my suspicions about why some people do adopt handles that are in some way related to the SS or Nazis. By and large, I think my feelings were pretty much on target. While the thread suffered from some topic drift, I think it's clear that when people take on these handles or exhibit some of the other behaviors I noted, this is not intended as a celebration of Nazism or racism, but motivated by other factors. I think people shouldn't get too bent out of shape by this (I don't see anyone calling themselves "Final Solution" or anything like that, the handles are generally pretty much military-related). As SS_PL says, it is just a game.

On the other hand, it's a game about a period of history that was intensely destructive and painful, and moreover which was only 50-odd years ago. There are people alive today who fought in WWII, and there are MANY people alive today who lost family and friends or who otherwise had their lives dramatically affected by the war. When I see handles like "SS_PanzerLeader," I do feel a bit uncomfortable, out of sympathy for those who might have strong, personally-motivated feelings about the SS and how this (however innocently-chosen) handle might dredge up old wounds. SS_PL, I'm not asking you to change your handle, but I don't think it's irrational for some people to feel uncomfortable or offended by your choice, and I would ask you to at least understand that sentiment and not dismiss it - whether you agree with it or not, there are many people here that feel this way.

So in closing, I'd just like to ask people to think a little bit and exercise a little consideration before posting. Hopefully a little bit of understanding will go a long way toward keeping this forum civil and on-topic (that is, discussing what is certainly the best computer wargame I've ever played).

I now return you to your regularly-scheduled "The German Soldier: Uberhampster or Paper Gerbil?" discussion.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

There is no need to apolgize for being anti-Nazi. To say that is just plain silly. There really isnt a need to be ACTIVELY anti-Nazi, as there ARENT ANY NAZI AROUND ANYMORE!!! And dont tell me you're worried about neonaizis or any crap like that, because politically nazis are passe, I reeeeally dont think theres anything to get so worked up over.

Now try not to get so worked up over dead people.

If it makes you feel good to have a cause, thats great

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Andrew, please point out the sarcasm, and I will remove it.

Everything I wrote, I do feel. If someone is interpreting something as sarcasm, make it known.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess it's not really sarcasm. Your assumption that it was your anti-Nazi beliefs that were ticking people off was kind of baseless, is all.

But no problem. Apology accepted. Now let's just get on with the more imporant things in life (CM)...

-Andrew

EDIT: slight grammar correction

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[This message has been edited by Mirage2k (edited 08-26-2000).]

[KiloIndiaAlpha]

Dr Brian, what was your PhD in?

[Hamstersss]

I forgive you, Dr. Brian.

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You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[Abbott]

I have been reading this forum for a year. Posting to it for a few weeks. It is one of the more mature forums I have had the pleasure to be a part of. It is factual, educational, friendly, informative and VERY polite to those that present themselves in a polite manner.

[Von Brizee]

It's not his anti-Nazi stuff that bugs me, it's just his excessive finger pointing of pro nazis. I put in some sarcasm about my Volksturm grandfather being drafted to defend his town and I get called a Pro-Nazi because of it. The proper thing to do for all German boys was to desert and be shot by the SS. Or just hide in the basement while the Soviets come in, burn your farm, and rape your women? So I assume, by your logic, every poor Russian peasant that picks up a rifle to defend his farm in 1941 is a bloodthirsty Communist? If a poor Georgian's village was being burned by Sherman's troops in the US Civil War, and he goes out to fight them, then that Southerner is of course a rascist black-lynching KKK fellow?

Appears like it's getting easier and easier to get a Phd nowadays by the looks of it, it seems knowing what the hell you are talking about is no longer a necessity.

[MadDog0606]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von Brizee:

It's not his anti-Nazi stuff that bugs me, it's just his excessive finger pointing of pro nazis. I put in some sarcasm about my Volksturm grandfather being drafted to defend his town and I get called a Pro-Nazi because of it. The proper thing to do for all German boys was to desert and be shot by the SS. Or just hide in the basement while the Soviets come in, burn your farm, and rape your women? So I assume, by your logic, every poor Russian peasant that picks up a rifle to defend his farm in 1941 is a bloodthirsty Communist? If a poor Georgian's village was being burned by Sherman's troops in the US Civil War, and he goes out to fight them, then that Southerner is of course a rascist black-lynching KKK fellow?

Appears like it's getting easier and easier to get a Phd nowadays by the looks of it, it seems knowing what the hell you are talking about is no longer a necessity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on now, this is a touchy feely thread, your spoiling the moment.

Now, it's my turn to spoil the moment. Doc, I don't forgive you. And I wont forgive you until you quit trying to force your moral STUFF on this forum and, by association, me. And not post your moral STUFF for a while, and just post about CM (please, oh please make it so).

I'm half Italian, and the Italians were allies to the Germans up to 1943. So, I guess I'm a Nazi by association. You have insulted my ancestry. And we Italians have this thing about insults and grudges.

[Chupacabra]

Dr. Brian -

I'm not really interested in rehashing the arguments of your previous posts, so I'm going to try to avoid them as much as possible. However, I may bring up specific points you've made to illustrate my own.

First - Strong opinions are fine. I have lots of 'em. But you need to realize that this is an international forum. As many of the German players here have noted, when you say that all Germans from 1933-1945 were pure evil, no ifs, ands or buts, you're talking smack about people's grandaddies. I assume you'd be miffed if someone did the same to you.

Second - it absolutely is simplistic to assert that - as I believe you have - all Germans supported the Nazis and were therefore evil. I note that you've never said what your doctorate's in, but I'll slang a little bit of academic bull atcha now. BA and MA in history, principally German, if you're interested. Without writing an article here: yes, many Germans either explicitly or implicitly supported Nazism. However, many Germans either explicitly or implicitly rejected and fought against it as well. Hitler had several assassination attempts made against him, both before and after 1933. The General's plot is the best known of course, but is by no means the only. That these attempts failed speaks more to Hitler's paranoia than to any lack of trying on the would-be assassin's parts. That these attempts were made at all, given that failure meant (for sure) death, (most likely) torture, (and quite probably) the torture and deaths of family and associates as well, speaks to the enormous courage of the people making the attempts.

Also - the German Army was NOT a volunteer army. Conscription was the rule. Even the SS was using conscript soldiers by the end of the war. Ignoring for a moment duty, nationalism, the desire to not be thought of as a coward, and all of that stuff, picture this: you're sitting at home drinking your beer and listening to your Volksemfaenger, when *knock knock*, "Oh look, dear, it's the Gestapo. They say you have to report for the army tomorrow or they'll kill all of us." Simple choice, really. Towards the end of the war, with Germany's adult male population mostly either dead or fighting, units of the HJ took military and civic control in many German towns. Again, simple choice. Either join the Volkssturm, or you get killed, and to make things worse, you'd get killed by a bunch of pimply 13-year olds with guns bigger than they were. Not my idea of fun.

Finally - I believe that part of the problem is that every time you make an apology, you go on to qualify it. No one is asking you to apologize for being anti-Nazi. I guarantee, there is no one here who is pro-Nazi. If there was, I wouldn't be here. I've studied Nazis for most of my adult life, and believe me, I hate them worse than the plague. I do not, however, hate Germans. And I do not make blanket statements about such a complex and emotionally charged subject.

Edited for spelling and grammar.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 08-26-2000).]

[howardb]

Panzerleader sounds way cooler than Armourboss though...

[Dr. Brian]

Anyone else have anything to say?

I've read each of your comments, including the ignorant attacks on character, and the fact that I've never read a history book, despite an entire persoanl library.

In this thread, if you have soemthing to say, please say it... I will read it. Some of you have made statements, and I've read them and accepted them, and responsibility.

Some of the other statements, people are just being assholes, claiming to be on high ground, making assumptions, putting words in my mouth, etc. They just are taking pleasure putting people down.

Seems like some of you are still unwilling to accept an apology....

Some people here perhaps have, and I thank them for it. They are more human and forgiving than what some of you *claim* I should be. This is sad as well.

Gentlemen, this is your choice. You can alienate new people, like myself, with differing opinions. If the people that have posted extensively deriding me (not the one-liner band wagon types) wish "Dr. Brian" to depart, Dr. Brian will. That would be sad, as I seem to have some comic relief for many of you. To be honest, I'll just have to come back as an alias (unless I already have), you'll never know the difference.

On the other hand, we can play CM.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Guest Mortiis]

I have room for another pbem if your interested email me.