"Abandon" hotkey needed, Please :)

[therontmoore]

Steve,

Will you please look into adding an "abandon" hot key in the next patch? Why, you ask?

Well, (based on PBEM games) if my MG crew is being overwhelmed by the enemy, they are forced to only "MOVE"; whereas the enemy infantry has "RUN"! In real life, if given the choice between trying to run with either the .50 or any MG versus running without - which would you choose? Therefore, the "ABANDON" command who have the crew abandon their crew served weapon and make a run for it.

This command would also be implemented for AFV crews also. Nothing worse than having most of your force retreating (charging really fast in the opposite direction) and your crew of an immobilized AFV staying behind!

[Hiram Sedai]

Why not withdraw if you want the unit to retreat quickly?

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[therontmoore]

"WITHDRAW" will only retreat at your unit's fastest speed; which for crew served weapons is "MOVE". It is as if the last man alive in the crew is still trying to carry that dang MG or mortar or whatever!

[ntg84]

Most people make them stay untill they die, which is "gamey", but I think it would be nice to save some lives and get them out of there.

[Chupacabra]

MG crews can't abandon their weapons at all, so no joy there I'm afraid. I'm guessing that it would be a can of coding worms to try to retrofit that into the game as well. IIRC there was a discussion not too long ago about abandoning mortars/MGs in which Steve gave an answer as to why MG crews can't abandon their guns, so you may want to do a search.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[109 Gustav]

I think this would be especially important for vehicles. For example, in a recent game I had a sherman take a gun hit and then a track hit from an StuG. The sherman couldn't shoot and couldn't run, and was going to take a round right through the hull as soon as the next turn began. Needless to say, I realized the tank was useless, and my only interest was to get that crew out alive. Instead, they stayed in there, the tank brewed up, and three of their mothers got telegrams.

With a bailout button, I could have ordered them out of the tank before the StuG hit me again, and they would have been safe. If such a button is made avalible, there should be little or no delay in getting out of the tank or abandoning the HMG. Crews should have an increased risk of panic, though, same as with Withdraw. Oh, and it would need a warning dialog box to keep us from hitting the wrong key.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Schugger]

Very difficult problem as they neither can run nor withdraw properly. But hey, I've got a solution - the "Energice" key. Just when the enemy is up to overrun your team`s position you simply hit that panic button and - puff - they dematerialice. I'm sure your PBEM opponent will be rather pissed, too.

[Simon Fox]

I agree with this proposal (apart from that bloody idiot Schugger of course , I thought we'd got rid of him?). An immobilised tank is basically dead, historical practice was to abandon them (with a few famous exceptions of course). As I generally eschew unrealistic tactics I don't enjoy having them forced on me. I would like to be able to tell that mortar/gun crew who are out of ammo or depleted Vickers/HMG team who are going to be overrun to "abandon that thing and get the hell out of there" as it is units which can't run withdraw with glacial slowness lugging their heavy weapon or metaphorically chained to their useless vehicle while doom inexorably descends upon them.

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"Labrat, you're a genius"- Madbot

[This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 12-13-2000).]

[Guest Pillar]

As far as the game goes however, an abandoned MG is as good as a dead one. This request is more one of asthetics, isn't it?

[Simon Fox]

No, if they get wiped out your opponent benefits via points, if you save them and run them off a friendly map edge you benefit so it's not merely a question of realism devoid of impact in game terms.

[Guest Pillar]

Ah yes, the points factor.

[therontmoore]

Yes, it is a matter of points and realism! Nobody in his right mind is gonna try to run with a heavy a** .50 cal MG! If you have ever seen photos depicting a retreating army, all you see is abandoned equipment that was deemed too dang heavy to take (ie. equipment value is not a concern)!

[MichaelU]

I'd like to way in for the abandon/bailout feature. This would come in particularly handy for that immobilized tank destroyer watching the Stuart closing in for the flank shot.

[aka_tom_w]

I doubt it is realistic to expect an abandon or bailout commend for CMBO

BUT for CM2 it should seriously be considered

YES I would like to see the ability to bail out of a tank, (in keeping with the style and philosophy of the game, the bail out MUST be ONE WAY meaning that you can NEVER re-crew abandonned weapons) and I would like to be able to abandon mortars a and Heavy MG's and withdraw and run away to save those crews and save the points.

I would like to suggest that a Bail-out command and an abandon weapon command be available in CM2.

Thanks

-tom w

[Maximus]

I don't know about you all, but having crews abandoning their weapons to withdraw and save points is VERY gamey in terms of a final score. If Gen. Patton saw a bunch of crews running around the battlefield after abandoning their perfectly good weapons, he'd have them court-martialed or worse yet, shot.

Yes, I sometimes run my crews back and off the field, but only after their weapons have LEGITAMATELY been disabled.

Also imagine this dialogue:

Driver: Sarge, I spot a Panther heading in on our 12 o'clock.

TC: Corporal, what do you suggest we do about it?

Driver: I don't know Sarge, maybe we should abandon our tank and run for it. I don't think we are a match for it.

TC: Corporal, don't you think we should at least try to hit it?

Driver: I dont think the Gunner can aim very well.

TC: Ah hell, well I guess we better run for it then.

[JediJobu]

Now if an MG or a mortar, and maybe even a AFV is abandonned, would there be a chance for capture for bonus points or even use against the abandonned crew. there's not much to known how to use a .50, feed the ammo and pull the trigger...

now there's a consideration.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

I don't know about you all, but having crews abandoning their weapons to withdraw and save points is VERY gamey in terms of a final score. If Gen. Patton saw a bunch of crews running around the battlefield after abandoning their perfectly good weapons, he'd have them court-martialed or worse yet, shot.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maximus,

Im going to respectfully disagree with you there.

If your motivation is to win on points by running soldiers away when you think they might be outmatched, that may be gamey.

But soliders in hopeless situations often do break and run or withdraw tactically.

And as a commander, I'd rather have an abandoned MG in a hopeless spot than see the dead crew right next to it. I can always get another machinegun, but a crew is a more valuable item.

But, while I think it would add to realism, its not at the top of my list.

Finally, I'm amused that you cite Patton in this instance. He very nearly lost his own job over the famous "slapping" incident, so I'm not sure he could have gotten away with shooting his own men.

Anybody know if the US actually executed its own soldiers for anything during the war?

[Major Tom]

I think it can be warranted by the 'extreme' event of the disabled and unarmed sherman sitting there waiting to get killed, but, does this lone and probably rare situation come about all that often?

A wize commander will also ensure that their slow support weaponry aren't in positions where they can be overrun easily, or totally without Infantry support. Place a few Squads with your support guys, and they will take care of anything that springs up. Also, withdraw your support weaponry if you see a major attack developing close to that area. They are only good at long ranges anyway.

Abandoning weaponry wasn't looked to kindly upon in any army. Unless it was a total rout (ie. Falise) commanders will ensure that their heavy weaponry is brought back in a retreat, as, it could be immediately usefull in a counter attack or as a rearguard. Just watch any reasonabley historic movie, and you will see the HMG weapons being withdrawn slightly before the infantry force moves out. Even the "Green Beret's" with John Wayne got this right. Althought they did abandon and spike the mortors.

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 12-14-2000).]

[Major Tom]

Yes, the US did execute at least one soldier in WWII, I think for desertion under fire. I saw a Historic-Movie, starring Martin Sheen about this a few years ago (it was fairly old, pre-Apocalypse Now). It was based on historic fact.

I can't say wether or not any other US soldier was executed. I think that this one was solely based on sending a message to the rest of the troops, other than enforcing a strict code of military operation.

It reminds me of that other movie, done by the same director as "Dr. Strangelove" about the French army in WWI.

[Major Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JediJobu:

Now if an MG or a mortar, and maybe even a AFV is abandonned, would there be a chance for capture for bonus points or even use against the abandonned crew. there's not much to known how to use a .50, feed the ammo and pull the trigger...

now there's a consideration. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It didn't take much to wreck a gun or spike a mortor. Put a mortor shell in backwards, or, throw away the HMG's barrel, and you have a useless weapon.

[Jackal]

This request seems valid enough, BUT, I have had mortar teams and MG teams to abandon their weapons under both heavy direct or indirect fire. What I would like to see as an option would be to have the crew pick the damn weapon up again!!! OR tell me the weapon is destroyed so I won't be so aggrevated at the crews.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

Finally, I'm amused that you cite Patton in this instance. He very nearly lost his own job over the famous "slapping" incident, so I'm not sure he could have gotten away with shooting his own men.

Anybody know if the US actually executed its own soldiers for anything during the war?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Patton nearly did shoot the poor bastard that he slapped, remember? He tried pulling his pistol but was was held back by his officers.

And for desertion, yes they very well did indeed. They executed one Private in France that I know of, but it created bad publicity and therefore they didn't do it anymore.

Whoops, Major Tom mentioned it above. I didn't read his post before replying.

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 12-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 12-14-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jackal:

What I would like to see as an option would be to have the crew pick the damn weapon up again!!! OR tell me the weapon is destroyed so I won't be so aggrevated at the crews. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen knocked out mortars in the game

If your crew abandons a mortar, go down to view 1, look around on the ground, and click on the abadoned mortar, it may actually say "Knocked out mortar" I have seen the situation before where the weapon (ie. mortar) takes a hit and becomes in operative, then the crew will abandon it quite promptly.

have you not seen this?

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-14-2000).]

[Silver Stars]

In response to Major Tom's statements...

The U.S. soldier was Private Slovak. I forgot the particulars of that story, but I do remember the name.

As for the Stanley Kubrick WWI movie, that would be "Paths to Glory" with Kirk Douglas. While that wasn't based on a specific event, There were definitely cases of desertions and insubordination on a large scale in the french army( and IIRC in the other West Front Armies as well) by 1916. But thats what happens after two years of a massively stupid war of attrition with virtually no movement.

Incidentally, that movie was almost immediately banned in France when it released. Not what you call a morale boosting movie by any means....

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"Life is pain. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something."

[This message has been edited by Silver Stars (edited 12-14-2000).]

[gaffertape]

Yes, was it 'Eddie' Slovak? Can't remember for sure. He was shot for desertion during the Battle of the Bulge. Due to the somewhat desperate situation for the Americans there, the execution was almost certainly intended as a warning to the troops. I only saw the end of the film with Martin Sheen, and it was quite moving.

GAFF