The graphics of fire and smoke

[Richard Foulston]

I downloaded the Beta demo recently and thought it was brilliant, but I didn't like the fire and smoke graphics. The fires are just boxes of two dimensional flames, and the smoke is also totally two dimentional. Will these be changed to three dimensional objects later on. Also, when heavy weapons fire (e.g. tanks, artillery, etc...) and when the shots hit the target you see a quickly expanding sphere to represent an explosion. In the final version will this be changed to smoke around the gun for firing, and a more realistic explosion for impact. The only other problem is that infantry can take quite a lot of fire power. Usually it would only take one or two shots anywhere on a person to take them out of the action. Will this change?

My only other questions are:

1)What's so special about the gold version I've heard everyone talking about, what will be added to the game, more vehicles, support for other graphics cards? Will this version cost much more, can the original be upgraded to gold, and if so, will you have to buy the upgrade, or can you download it free.

2)I don't know if there is a definate answer to this one, but does anyone have an official (or nearly official) release date. I've heard dates ranging from the end of last year to the end of January.

Please answer my questions if you can,

Richard.

[von shrad]

Wow, where to start... Firs, the graphics for smoke and fire are going to be as they are IIRC. The reason for not having full 3-d graphics on smoke, fire, trees is that todays computer hardware cant handle the extra polygon counts needed especially when you consider there can be MANY fires and smoke collums during the course of a game...About infantry being too tough. I dont know if you know this, Infantry squads represent 10 to 12 men each. Again polygon count, not to mention how cluttered the battlefield would be if you showed every man. Most battles involve hundreds of men, now try to understand how hard it would be to keep all those figures organized. About the Gold. This is just a beta demo. The full game is going to have so much more in it. I am not with BTS, just someone who watches this board often. Check out CMHQ, as they have covered many things since the demo.

[Fionn]

1. The flames and smoke graphics won't be changed as far as I know since to do otherwise would require prodigious amounts of CPU and 3D work. End result: A lot of people would be ruled out of playing by the increased minimum requirements.

2. At present there IS smoke around the barrel when firing. I don't think the explosion graphics are going to be changed. (same reason as above IIRC)

3. Gold version: The gold version will be the finished version of the game. It will feature many new features, vehicles.

The beta demo isn't a "version" of the final game. It is purely a couple of scenarios played on a 2+ month old build of the game...

I sense from your post that you don't know the difference between beta, gold, builds etc etc. Do you want that explained as it'll all make a lot more sense then.

4. The "final version" will be a released game which must be purchased if you want to play it. It is mail-delivered.

5. I'd disregard most of the guesses. The game is in very good shape with many features present which weren't in the beta demo. However BTS has stated that it is only going to release CM when they think it is ready ( as opposed to HAVING to ship on a certain date).

The best answer is that it'll be whenever it'll be. I've stopped even trying to guess the release date myself and I'm a beta tester

Ps. I think if you go to http://combathq.thegamers.net you'll find a lot of good info about the game. Send your friends too . The more hits that site gets the better cause I get even more freedom to just do whatever Matt and I come up with

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Doug Beman]

Richard, do not assume that because infantrymen are being fired upon that they are automatically being hit. If you use the LOS tool, you will get a little "exposure" rating, which is the estimate by your unit doing the LOS'ing of how much of the enemy is visible enough to get shot. Infantry in woods or buildings can have exposures in the single digits, meaning that it's REALLY hard to hit them.

HOWever, pouring firepower onto an infantry unit, even if it's not hitting anybody, will really suppress them, which is almost as good.

DjB

[Moon]

Hi Richard, welcome!

Most has been answered already, so just a short comment on infantry causalties - I don't know where you think that infantry is too tough in the game. Some people even mentioned some time ago that casualty numbers are too high

One reason I would expect is that you have been playing the Close Combat series? If this is so... err... get ready to learn how it REALLY was

[Richard Foulston]

Thanks for your help but most computers can cope with quite a lot more than the probable requirements (or at least all iMacs can especially with speed and RAM upgrades) so my suggestion would be to have extra 3D graphics available for optional installation, or bring out the 3D graphics in a later addition if they slowed down it's production, but I guess we'll just have to live with it, real pity though, but I'll probably get the game anyway.

Thanks for the information about squads representing more men, I thought it might have somthing to do with that, but I wasn't quite sure.

Also Von Shrad, it would be nice if you could explain about the Beta demo's and gold editions, etc... I have always got a bit confused about that sort of thing.

Thanks for your help.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...but most computers can cope with quite a lot more than the probable requirements<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most top of the line computers can, but what about all those people with older machines? I have a machine that could handle them, but not everyone I play does. Should they be denied the chance to play without buying a new computer?

[Mikeydz]

About the "Gold" version.

This term describes what phase of developement. First is the Alpha versions, then comes Beta (What CM currently is in now) and then Gold (also called Final). When a game goes "Gold" that means the developement code is basically frozen. They send the program code to the duplicators, who put the games onto the CD's. Of course once BTS sends the game out for shipping, they can go back to work fixing and bugs that might have slipped through, tweak some features, ect.

You seem to be confusing this with "Gold Editions" of games that you often see. Thouse are, like you mentioned. They generally are the latest patched version of the game, combine new features, new maps or scenarios, ect. They don't usually appear until months or more after a game is released.

That help?

Mikey

[sbg2112]

Fionn stated above that he didn't think that smoke would change, but I wonder if in fact it will. Now that BTS has the technology (as evidenced by the transparent buildings), perhaps transparent smoke will be another pleasant surprise.

Now, my guess is that they won't change the actual graphic that's currently used, but that they might make the current graphic transparent -- I'm sure it's way too late / complex to try to do anything more realistic.

Just a guess folks -- heck, I'm only a junior member after all.

[Fionn]

Don't look at any of us beta testers for the answer.

Charles and Steve sprung transparent walls on us completely out of the blue . if they're planning anything on smoke none of us have heard anything.

My opinion is just not to expect or bet on it or badger for it. If they plan it then they'll do it. Otherwise it might just come later.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK, Richard's answers havepretty much been correct. As for the ability of current computers to handle more is concerned, this is true to a limited extent. We *can* bump up certain things, but there are some things we can not touch. Problem is that not even we, the people who do this for a living, know for sure which is which sometimes. So... sometimes a tweak is done to test the waters if we think it could possibly work, otherwise we don't touch it with a 10 foot pole. There are only so many hours in the day, so since our primary goal is not to max out people's hardware we have to be a bit carefull how much time we spend on the graphics side of thing.

As for transparent smoke/fire... there are no plans to do this right away. Who knows in the future.

In closing, just remember that nobody's computer today can handle what we all can picture in our heads. So just because you can think of something doesn't mean it can work Computers have a nasty habit of telling us to go take a hike when we assume too much about their ability to handle our dreams

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-08-2000).]

[TZEENCH]

Hey Steve... hey ive been playing Battle zone2 for the last few days and in some of the scriped details of the battle field they have some burning tanks and smoke sprites--- they look cool and might be easy to bring over or referance to CM2 or something

[WarDogz]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

We *can* bump up certain things, but there are some things we can not touch... As for transparent smoke/fire... there are no plans to do this right away...

I agree with the original poster on this, I would like to see the typical game selection option found in most games today for increased graphics in relation to smoke/fire and concussion effects...it just does something for me. I understand many of the ASL gaming grognards still want this game to run on their 486 dx66 (or equivalent<GG>)but a great many of us tend to stay just behind the techno wave in regards to hardware for the entertainment value in graphics and sound. So, as in many games, an option or options for different graphic and sound levels would be a nice touch...I believe the bottom line here for BTS, is the sale of this game and it's other products. And when I rave about Combat Mission to my online friends one of the first questions is "how's the graphics?"...and to date my answer has consistently started with "well,...". Whereas the tank and object graphics are superbly done, the action and effects graphics lack, and I'm positive, if released as they are, you will find reviews in magazines mentioning this. Just spend the time to make them "prittier", you'll get alot of sales just because of the graphics alone, and make those of us that will buy it anyways but would have liked better effects graphics, happier.

[Mark IV]

Wardogz: I doubt that I'm alone in saying that, if I thought I was going wait one extra, interminable week for the release of this game (or even one more demo scenario), so that you could tell your friends the graphics were kewl, I would track you down and reformat your hard drive at the very least .

It's pretty enough (I assume you're following the updated screen shots at CMHQ). It could always be better and that's why they have a version numbering system. I'm sure by CM3-5 you'll have holographic fireballs, updated stitch patterns on the camo smocks, and rifling marks on the tank shells. My lame old 300s digest everything just fine and they will upgrade mainly to keep pace with CM. But for me this is a war FIRST and a game second, and I would be quite happy to have it NOW!!!

[Doug Beman]

Hear, hear!! I nom'nate MarkIV for the "Doug's-Mind-Reader of the Year" award!

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Graphical options take time to program, which then means there isn't time for other (more important) things. We could spend weeks, if not months, improving the graphics handling in CM and produce some pretty cool, noticable improvements for those that have the highend systems. But what we have now is plenty good enough in our opinion, and in fact better than many other 3D games with 1/10th the gameplay value. So if we do make further tweaks all the better, but right now we don't really plan on doing much more before we ship. Not enough hours in the day.

Steve

[Berlichtingen]

Mark IV,

Count me in on that commando raid on the hard drive

[Hundminen]

The smoke is pretty bloody awful.

My 3 year-old boy was watching me play, and he got all the graphics features right except for the "grey rivers"

Hundminen

[CoolColJ]

You can tweak you know

I'm tweaking the smoke now...actually I quite like the smoke....

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CCJ

BLITZ_Force

My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/

[Richard Foulston]

Hi,

It's Richard again. I just have another few comments and suggestions:

1) As someone mentioned earlier, graphics are a big thing when it comes to computer games, and people really do want the best. If a rewiew in PC Gamer states at the end - 'Overall the graphics are great but the flames and smoke look a bit like they were done in a rush and don't really match the quality of graphics on most of the other parts of the game' then you're probably going to loose some customers. But a - '...so you may want to buy the expansion pack coming out next month' would go nicely on the end. Are there any plans to bring out an offical expansion pack (like on command and conquer, and Starcraft ones), which would include improved graphics, fix bugs, and add the vehicles not released in the original? I know that I'd be willing to spend another £15 on an expansion pack (I did with Starcraft), would other members?

2) What are graphics like that doing in Combat Mission? The graphics for the tanks are amazing, and everything else fit in perfectly, except the fire, smoke and explosion effects. They really don't fit in! You did say the game wouldn't be released until it was ready, doesn't making all the graphics fit in count as finished?

3) One another thing that rather annoys me about computer games is seeing one man, who represents 5 men. Will there be an option that will allow each man to represent one man (by that I mean a squad of three men representing three men, rather than twelve, as I accept that it is too hard to have twelve men per squad) ?

(For those who care a little more about playing a realistic game, than an accurate world war 2 simulation.)

4) What are the current desicions about dead infantry? Do they stay on the battlefeild, just dissapear straight away, give a little dying act and then dissapear after a few seconds, dissapear at the end of the turn, or do we get a choice in the options?

5)We have to mail order Combat Mission from you personally, right? Well, then where are you stationed, 'cause if it's in America then surely the post & package and everything, are going to make it pretty expensive for people in places like Britain (where I am) to buy the game off you. Am I right? Is there a solution?

I really do think that adding a little realistic 3D smoke around the turret when it fires; and having a more realistic explosion, and some smoke around large explosions from tanks and mortars, etc...; and some realistic fire and smoke (even if it's just thin 3D dimensional strands of flame, a bit like on Starcraft, if anyone has ever seen the flames on terran buildings, and I don't mean having seen screenshots because they're rubbish), I personally wouldn't mind waiting for an expansion pack or something like that, if you did ever decide to improve the graphics.

I would just like to say that I think the producers are doing a wonderful job, and combat mission has to be one of the best computer games that I have ever seen. I was just hoping it would become the best!

[Guest L Tankersley]

I wouldn't be amazed if BTS comes out with a subsequent patch addressing some of these issues (they're already planning a free patch to add TCP/IP support after release). I agree that to my mind the smoke does really stand out against the other graphics, and it would be nice to get it tweaked. But I can certainly live with it. If not for CM, then hopefully for CM2 (the minimum system requirements will likely have advanced a bit by then, too).

Regarding point 2, I just wanted to make an additional point that you might not have realized - one of the problems with smoke and fire is that there can be a LOT of it. You may have only seen smoke rising from the occasional burning vehicle or smoke discharger in the beta demo. But if you call in an artillery smoke fire mission, you can easily have 50 or more smoke plumes on the map. I don't think BTS is too worried about the performance hit for transparent smoke for one or two plumes; it's when the map is covered by smoke and burning terrain that it gets to be a real problem.

As far as your point 3 goes -- this debate was done to death months ago. If you're really interested, I suggest you use the forum's Search function. There are two main reasons I remember: 1) performance hit from all the extra polygons required when you triple or quadruple the number of figures, and 2) simulation/AI/immersion problems - right now the game doesn't track the exact locations of individual soldiers, and the representative unit of 3 (or however many) figures is placed at the unit location. If you add figures for every man, the map gets overwhelmingly cluttered and you need to try to place the extra figures in locations that make sense, which is far from trivial.

Point 4 (bodies) is a topic that was done to death even more than the previous one. To summarize: no dead bodies, no markers, no blood, deal with it. Odds are any argument you could make on this issue has already been raised and shot down - please check the archives via Search if you insist on pursuing this further to avoid rehashing arguments forum regulars are heartily sick of. Thanks

And on point 5: yes, BTS is in the US, and you have to order the game from them. They're doing the best they can w.r.t. international orders given their small size and lack of clout.

Leland J. Tankersley

[Guest TOBRUK]

Just a couple of thoughts, if I may. I don't mean to appear Chauvinistic ( and btw Chauvin was a shameless promoter of Napolean, and the term has nothing to do with male vs female ) but I think BTS has done a fine job. Let's keep in mind that this is primarily a strategy/tactics game. The important graphics are in there; the tanks and even the tiny weapons are realistically done ( try homing in with camera 1 on those handheld weapons; even the M1 Garand is accurately done ).

Another point; cannon fire and explosions. Large smoke production is a hollywood invention. Most weapons ( handheld to tanks) don't actually produce much smoke; in fact smokeless powder is often used to minimize smoke. To me the tank muzzle blasts are fantastically done; you get the effect of the tremendous blast and you can even 'see' the projectile as it screams toward the target.

Now, even I have urged BTS towards improved graghics, but I don't think this should become a 'flashy' game with no realistic integrity.

Ok; I think I've been preaching. Sorry. I guess I'll go get some therapy now. Bye

[Guest Big Time Software]

Richard, you really need to do some homework on all of your points. They have all been covered to death several times over. The basic point I will make here is that you don't understand what it takes to develop software, nor do you have a good grasp of what hardware is capable of. If we were to do everything like people have pictured in their heads before release, block out some time in early 2001 to play CM because we probably won't be able to release before then.

Everything takes time and everything can be done better with more time, esecially because hardware gets better each month. But at some point we HAVE to say "no more work here, move on to something else" or we will *never* finish the game. I mean NEVER. This is called "reality" and it is a real bastard to argue with. Tust me, we have been through this about 10 times or so and it never changes.

As far as the PC Gamer thing goes... we aren't making Combat Mission for that crowd so whatever consumer level gripes they wish to toss at us don't phase us at all. If we DID care we would have put in 1/2 as much time on the game aspect and the rest into graphics. And guess what that would leave everybody with? Yup, the same watered down crap that wargamers gripe about day in and day out.

So the old saying goes... be careful for what you wish for because you just might get it Coupled with, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We still might have time to make some improvements, but personally I could care less if we touched one bit of graphics code between now and release.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-10-2000).]

[Guest JonS]

TOBRUK,

prettily done carbines, and kewl textures on the tanks don't affect the tactics players use in the game. They do increase immersion tremendously, which is a good thing of itself.

However, I feel that having unrealistic representations of smoke does affect the play (read tactics) used in the game because of the way smoke affects LOS. The same goes for trees actually. Sometimes in the demo I've noticed that I can 'see' an enemy unit from a friendly location through gaps in the graphical trees, but the LOS engine won't allow it because the model trees get in the way.

BTS, please don't get snippy or defensive about these comments. I like the game (a lot!) as it is, and based on your response to other issues (MG ammo, arty, et al) believe that with time/releases most of the things that people find odd or annoying with what they have seen so far will go away

Cheers

Jon

Ubique

[This message has been edited by JonS (edited 01-10-2000).]

[Guest TOBRUK]

JonS; I guess I was responding to something Richard said about '3D smoke around the turret when it fires.'

I agree with you about the tactical smoke. But I still don't think the current graphics are a major hindrance to immersion. Well, at least for me. Never-the-less your points are well taken.

[This message has been edited by TOBRUK (edited 01-11-2000).]