WHO GIVES A STUFF AND WHY

[Pacestick]

I am a bit perplexed and I am hoping someone can enlighten me.

I constantly see posts from junior members of the forum asking for some advice or seeking an answer to some question on a million and one different things mostly related to the wonderful game of CM.

The vast majority of these posts invoke responces that I would call intollerant and in some cases, downright insulting from people who seem deeply offended that they are forced to read these posts more than once.

It appears that asking something that has been discussed in the past is a terrible and wasteful thing to do.

Is the cyberspace used in this manner gone forever and can never be reused? The constant asking of and answering questions of a similar nature has some unknown detrimental effect on the ozone layer?

No,my guess is it makes the old and bold here feel important to chide the "newbies" for wasting their valuable time in having to answer a question already answered.

Or perhaps the ones who chide the newbies for being to lazy to do a search are in fact to lazy themselves to sort the wheat from the chaff in the way they filter the forums content for the posts that are of interest them alone.

The problem from my viewpoint in doing a search to see what has been discussed to death beforehand is that the result will invariably be old news. Most people are more interested in what applies to version 1.03 and want instant and relevant feedback than

reading some old discussion that may have pertained to the beta, the gold demo, version 1.01 and so on.

If this has been discussed before my apologies, I did not do a search for the same reason I call directory assistance when I need a phone number rather than looking up a phone book. I am just too damm lazy

[deanco]

For what it's worth, dude, I see where you're coming from, but OTOH, there are some guys here that have been hanging out for maybe 3 years on this same forum. Back then the only people posting were military experts and such, a small group of people very interested in the game's developement. Now the floodgates are open and lots of people are posting here and a few of the oldtimers are having a hard time adjusting to it all. Not to make excuses because I've noticed the same thing as you, but if you put yourself in the shoes of some of the veterans here it makes it easier to understand why this attitude MAY (I did say MAY) be present. Hope this helps.

DeanCo--

[PeterNZer]

Ahh, the irate grogonard, a terrible Foe.

I think everyone shouldn't post at all if they're not going to post something usefull in reply eh?

Besides, us oldish timers should have worked out a FAQ months ago. I shall add it to my list of tasks to do, it is now number #341 fingers crossed I complete it before next century with the other guys help, (we started it a while back eh).

Lets be nice to the juniors, it helps Steve and Charles

PeterNZ

[Guest Germanboy]

First of all I think this unfriendlyness is one of the persistent legends of this board. How many posts are there where it says: "Bugger off, do a search you (insert favourite insult here)." Not many. In fact most posts asking questions asked repeatedly before generate a short reply, most of the times answering it and apart from that telling the questioner to do a search. That's what I do at least. Nobody wants to repeat those discussions, so that is the best you can expect. Otherwise your expectation would be that other people use their time to rehash things b/c you are too lazy and expect them to do it. Well fine, I work for about $25/hour, interested in my account number that you know where to send the money?

Seriously though, the reason you should do a search is that you will get fuller responses and much more background and even the official BTS positions. Or do you expect Steve and Charles to come here and state those time and again because people are too lazy? I don't think so.

A FAQ would be a good thing, but difficult to set up in your spare time. Maybe it works this time the way Guachi proposed.

------------------

Andreas

[Pacestick]

Germanboy

My point is no one expects people to post a reply if it a labourous and unpleasant task for them. All they have to do is decide to answer the query or ignore it. If the decision is to answer it, do it with good grace.

inserted for mirage2k

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pacestick:

Germanboy

My point is no one expects people to post a reply if it a labourous and unpleasant task for them. All they have to do is decide to answer the query or ignore it. If the decision is to answer it, do it with good grace.

inserted for mirage2k<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pacestick, I don't want to start a fight or anything, can you just tell me what an acceptable reply would be?

Let's say somebody knew comes and asks: 'My HT has been knocked out by a .50HMG, shome mishtake, shurely?' My answer to that would be: 'No it is not, the .50 had the capability to take out HTs, and the game seems to accurately model it. There may be a problem with hit probability though. There have been lengthy discussions on this, if you are interested, I suggest doing a search.'

I don't think that is arrogant or lacking in grace. But opinions may differ.

BTW, this discussion has been here before, so you could do a search...

------------------

Andreas

[mikeadams]

While it is true that some members are discourteous on occasion, I have found this forum to be far more tolerant than most. I agree a FAQ would be a great addition (any volunteers?) though there will always be those who don't read the FAQ either. Still, I would like to commend the patience and good manners of the vast majority of users, especially those who take time out to answer, what may appear to some, to be trivial questions.

[Pacestick]

Germanboy

I was not firing at you either.

Your reply would be perfectly acceptable to the 50 cal question but there are many that do not post in the same tone.

I gave my reasons for not searching on the subject in my original post.

[Bertram]

He Germanboy, $25 an hour, that is bloody cheap. What are your qualifications? Do you do plumbing? I could use some Kitchensinks in the QB I am playing.

Bertram

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pacestick:

I gave my reasons for not searching on the subject in my original post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, I was only jesting.

Bertram, afraid that is the rate for stuff I can do on my computer without getting up (except for refilling the Whisky tumbler). Kitchensinks are more expensive, as is advising on how to prevent Oberchinchillafuehrer Schulz from knocking out your tanks.

------------------

Andreas

[Holdit]

On the subject of the possibility of an FAQ, how about drawing up a final list of topics and allocate a number of volunteers one topic each? Divide and conquer. I'd be happy to help out. We could lighten the load by copying and pasting the most informative/relevant points from each thread.

Just a thought. I admit though, that I don't know how many threads each volunteers would end up having to wade through.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Pacestick: I'm not recommending that people shy away from delving into topics that have already been discussed, but for them to take a quick look at what's already been thrown out there before posting. BTS has closed threads on several occasions that have resulted in the same circular arguments that occurred in earlier threads on that topic (eg the Great Roster Debate). I think people will find that they can contribute a lot more if they're aware of the pros and cons of a given topic before they post on it.

I don't think many people have been treated very rudely on this forum - it's about the best group of guys (and a few gals) that I've come across on the net.

Edit: Note to self - spellcheck!!!

[This message has been edited by Mannheim Tanker (edited 08-14-2000).]

[Henri]

I dunno, I just came back from a convention; when someone at the poolside reception asked whether next year's meeting would be held at the same place, I didn't reply "Listen you lazy bastard, this question has been asked and answered hundreds of times over the past three years, and this is the third time in the last fifteen minutes that I have answered it! Get a clue and go to the website where the locations for the next five years are indicated...". What would you think of somewone who would reply "Look, we discussed that here last year, take a hike and get a clue!" ?

Why should it be any differfent here? After all, a forum is a discussion group, and no one should have to "walk" around saying "Excuse me, could you point me to someone who can enlighten me as to which people here have discussed over the past three years the location of next year's meeting?" Just like at any group, new people should listen a bit before speaking out, but personally I don't mind summarizing answers from previous discussions for newbies.

Besides, I find the search function almost useless to find specific information about a subject, given that messages are not indexed with keywords. If one is interested in finding a discussion about the thickness of the front armor of Panthers vs that of Shermans, under what words should he search? And then should he have to read hundreds of irrelevant messages about the relative penetrating power of the Panther vs tht of the Tiger?

Henri

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Besides, I find the search function almost useless to find specific information about a subject,...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There's certainly some truth to that. The search results on something like "HMG's", to use Andreas' example, would surely be monumental. It can, however, be very useful and I (and many others) try to steer people in that direction since they may not be familiar with it. I also try to answer the question. The problem, IMO, is that sometimes they are unwilling to take that for an answer but want to rehash the whole argument which has been discussed to death many times. It's just human nature for us (who have seen these discussions over and over) to become a little perturbed.

The basic point of this thread, however, is well taken. Let's try to remember to be nice and helpful since that helps BTS which, in turn, helps us.

And I have to agree with Andreas {gag} that I haven't seen that much newby flaming going on here. As a sidenote, I HAVE seen questions asked, no one answers, and the poster gets nasty because no one answered! Can't win.

Joe

[Hakko Ichiu]

The newbie posts that seem to get flamed are the ones that run along the lines of:

This game sucks. I had a Puma knocked out by a crappy little Polish 60mm mortar. As if! Like, what up with that, dUdE? Oh yeah, and how come the game isn't in realtime like CC4? Now that was a wargame that kicked aSs.

People who ask sensible albeit oft-answered questions absent any attitude tend to get polite, if brief, answers along with a suggestion that they do a search.

Pacestick: You may be too lazy to look up a phone number, but remember that calling directory assistance has a cost (even if it's free) that you pay either directly or indirectly.

------------------

Ethan

-----------

Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 08-14-2000).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pacestick:

inserted for mirage2k<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, thanks. to you, too, and may your CM travels be fruitful.

-Andrew

------------------

Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[Steve Clark]

I am a regular in about 10 forums and this is always a topic that keeps popping up. I think all of the long-timers here should be encouraged by the volume in this forum and because of the alternative model that BTS is doing in marketing their game, this forum offers the best way to keep the products growing. As far as asking/answering questions, if you keep the questions polite and with a respectful tone (as Fionn stated awhile back), then good answers will come. You long-timers have to admit that the number of topics on this forum is overwhelming (more than any other forum I participate in). It is easier to ask a simple question and get a simple answer then to do a search where the question may have been asked differently. However if one wants to start a debate on a particular modeling feature, then it is probably best to search first.

Let me add an ancedote. Many of you know how popular Civilization II is. Even though it has been out nearly five years now, in the Civ2-Strategy forum at Apolyton, we still get a number of newcomers asking about strategies and some have recently led to new techniques and strategies. I find it hard to believe that with the newness of CM, that every single strategy or technique has been talked about and written in stone. With the variations in the AI and as a larger number of gamers become experience with CM, 6 months from now I bet there will be some subtle revelations. Even with a FAQ, let's still not discourage people's interest in CM.

[Chupacabra]

I'm new to this forum and haven't noticed any hostility towards me. As people have pointed out, the search function works well, and it's often less time-consuming to do a search rather than post a question. And it certainly saves everyone else time.

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[David Aitken]

Henri wrote:

> If one is interested in finding a discussion about the thickness of the front armor of Panthers vs that of Shermans, under what words should he search?

"Panther", "Sherman" and "armor", perchance?

It's plainly obvious that trying to search for information on a subject isn't nearly as easy as asking a knowledgable human being, but I would point out that (1) practically every aspect of Combat Mission has already been discussed on this forum, (2) all that information is right here for the taking, and (3) there is a search function which, while maybe not psychic, can certainly find what you're after if you know how to make the best of search engines.

In situations where there is a short answer, most people would be happy to offer one. But on subjects where there has been heated debate, it's not just lazy to ask - it can also touch raw nerves, if not restart the whole debate.

As Ethan points out, though, polite requests tend to get polite replies - the trouble starts when some smartarse marches in and proclaims that they know better than BTS. This is the real newbie problem - newbies often don't understand just how intensely detailed the game is, and how intense the discussion on this forum can be. Maybe there should be a warning at the top of the page, pointing out that this is not so much a game as a simulation.

David

P.S. I'm not exactly a forum veteran myself, but I've always recognised that I'm among experts, and tried to fit in.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Good points, Steve. The comparison with CivII really drives it home. Like many others have stated, I think it all comes down to the attitude of the poster. I apologize if I have ever come across as "intolerant" in my search requests...

[Fionn]

" The newbie posts that seem to get flamed are the ones that run along the lines of:

This game sucks. I had a Puma knocked out by a crappy little Polish 60mm mortar. As if! Like, what up with that, dUdE? Oh yeah, and how come the game isn't in realtime like CC4? Now that was a wargame that kicked aSs.

People who ask sensible albeit oft-answered questions absent any attitude tend to get polite, if brief, answers along with a suggestion that they do a search."

I couldn't agree with this more... Personally I'm among the first to answer an old, old question if asked politely AND amongst the first to tell the poster where to get off if he is here with an attitude.

I think it ALL comes down to attitude. 9 times out of 10 a polite response will get a brief answer and a "BTW, do a search next time.. This has been discussed before."

However, if a newbie posts with attitude about something obvious then that attitude is reflected back at them ( as it should be IMO) .

Basic rule is that you aren't going to get flamed so long as your initial query is polite. Even if it has been asked many times before the thing MOST likely to cause flaming won't be asking it again but asking it with an attitude.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

The newbie posts that seem to get flamed are the ones that run along the lines of:

This game sucks. I had a Puma knocked out by a crappy little Polish 60mm mortar. As if! Like, what up with that, dUdE? Oh yeah, and how come the game isn't in realtime like CC4? Now that was a wargame that kicked aSs.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Case in point, if I may... Who remembers a famous newbie with a weird handle entitling his thread: 'This sure ain't World War 2', and starting it with 'I am no fool'. Things sort of went down-hill from there.

------------------

Andreas

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

It's plainly obvious that trying to search for information on a subject isn't nearly as easy as asking a knowledgable human being, but I would point out that (1) practically every aspect of Combat Mission has already been discussed on this forum, (2) all that information is right here for the taking, and (3) there is a search function which, while maybe not psychic, can certainly find what you're after if you know how to make the best of search engines.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think (1) is the problem many newbies complain about.

First of all, I seriously doubt every aspect has been discussed, much less exhaustively. Often forums like this can really get stuck in their ways, so to speak, and new people often bring new ideas and new perspectives on old issues. I think sometimes those ideas are dismissed out of hand because people cannot accept that the newbie might have something to say that has not been thought of already. Remember, just because they are new to this forum does not automatically make them unknowing or ignorant.

CM has been released to the general public for just a few weeks now. The amount of play it has gotten in the last 4-6 weeks is probably an order of magnitudde greater than the play it got in the previous 2 years. It is hubris to assume that all the issues have been covered.

Secondly, who cares if it has been discussed before? Who cares if the current discussion has no chance of coming up with something new? I think plenty of people participate not just because they want to get an answer, but because they enjoy the discussion! So let them.

If someone tomorrow posts a message titled "I was wondering, should CM have a roster?", who cares? Who cares if the exact same points are brought up and beaten to death? If you do not enjoy the discussion, then it is unnecessary to participate! Just ignore it. Is ther some finite resource being wasted by those people?

Jeff

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

If someone tomorrow posts a message titled "I was wondering, should CM have a roster?", who cares? Who cares if the exact same points are brought up and beaten to death? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff, if it took that form, I don't think there would be much of a problem. The last one however was "CM should have a roster: vote" which makes it harder to ignore for those of us who don't agree, and forces us to rehash the old arguments again and again. But we can argue about this until the cows come home. Bottom-line IMO is that;

a) the abuse newbies are receiving is very much overstated by posts such as the one starting this thread

there is no harm in searching, and if you want to have official input on a matter that has been discussed before at length, you may only get it by digging, b/c Steve and Charles or others have better things to do

c) you are right, there are certainly a lot of issues that have not been discussed that are coming up now. And those are being discussed so that does not really pertain to this discussion, IMO.

d) if someone is being told to search, he is effectively being told he should put his time into looking for an answer to his question instead of expecting others to use theirs for free.

e) if you come here with an attitude, you are in trouble. B/c most of the time those people have not more to offer than that, Skorzeny being a case in point.

------------------

Andreas

[Purple4Ever]

Does anyone know how the search function works?

Does the keyword search only include words in the Topic header - or - does it search the actual text of each post within a topic (or both)?

The reason I ask is because, while some discussions may actually follow (or match) the Topic, this is not always the case.

For the sake of an example - this very topic.

If I wanted to search for "Newbie Topic Posting Etiquette" (using any of those words) or some such - I wouldn't find this post - it would not occur to me to search for "Who Gives A Stuff And Why".

By the same token, I have seen posts with the topic similar to "!!!?!?!?!?" and then the actual thread text goes on to discuss something relevant and interesting.

It all depends on how the search function actually works.......

I agree with all however, in that it is the "tone" of the question being asked that elicits the "rude" responses.

Remember - you only get one chance to make a first impression.