Allan Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Well, I thought I would go see U-571 today. In case you don't know it is the ficticious story of an American plot to steal the Emigma machine from a German sub. The movie was entertaining but it was also very Hollywood. Lots of shoot'em up type stuff, including an underwater torpedo duel between two subs that almost ruined it for me. But to the movie's credit it did list the actual cases of the allies capturing the enigma from U-boats. BTW, does anyone know if the US "S" class subs had radar in 1942? Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blacksilver Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 I'm sure every conceivable anachronism will shortly be detailed at http://www.deepdomain.olm.net/ssr/ . ------------------ Blacksilver <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis -- an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> -D. W. Brogan, The American Character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Allan, "S" class subs were reasonably primitive since they were old designs. Many of the subs in the Philipines when the war began were S class. Although they did a decent and extremely brave job with them, they were reasonably quickly pulled back to be used as training subs and the more modern subs were put into service. S class boats only fired four torps forward and one aft. Reloads were slow and difficult. I can't say for sure wheather a few were equiped with radar but I am not aware of it and I am reasonably up to speed on US subs of that era. Since I don't plan to see how Hollywood goes to war (a tad cynical from having spent time in that business years ago), if you want a hard answer, please tell me the circumstances of the use of the radar. The only radar I am aware of (fielded in 1942 on subs) was aircraft detection radar ( it was primitive stuff too). I don't recall surface radars being used until later in the war...I will look up the dates if you wish. Radar that showed targets underwater, to the best of my recollection, was not available during the war...at all. Gen'l Info: S class subs Displacement: 903 surface 1230 submerged Size: 261x21x13 (feet) Power: 2 dielsel & 2 electric engines Speed: Max surface 14.5/11 submerged (limited duration) Depth: 200 feet test depth (could usualuly go to 250 or so in actuality) Range: surface 8000nm at 10 knots Torpedo's: 4 fore, 1 aft, 12 total and 1 four inch deck gun. Other classes in use at the time were: Barracuda, Narwhal, P and Salmon (all were older, like the S class, tho each of these was much bigger than an S class) All were eventually replaced by the T class Fleet Submarine beginning in mid-to-late 1942. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted April 22, 2000 Author Share Posted April 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ARCHANGEL: Allan, "S" class subs were reasonably primitive since they were old designs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the info. I knew the S class was old and the movie actually stated such to its credit. To my surprise, the movie got a bunch of the details correct such a four forward tubes etc. The art director that did Das Boot also did U-571 so I would expect most stuff to be correct. However, only two things really bothered me. First the underwater torpedo dual. Both subs just fired a broad spread at each other based on sonar contacts. I guess that is not too unrealistic but I never remember reading about subs doing anything like this during the war. The radar incident was when cruising on the surface, the US S class sub detected the U-boat, also on the surface via radar. Like yourself, I did not think the S class carried surface radar. Of course this was a special op so I guess it could have been fitted with such. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 At least one submerged German U-boat was destroyed in the Bay of Biscay during an underwater dual with a British submarine. Several of the larger Japanese submarines were also destroyed by US submarine torpedo spreads while submarged. Overall though I'd guess that less than a dozen submarines were destroyed by submarine-fired torpedoes while submerged but it wasn't entirely unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Posted April 22, 2000 Author Share Posted April 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Overall though I'd guess that less than a dozen submarines were destroyed by submarine-fired torpedoes while submerged but it wasn't entirely unknown.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok so maybe the underwater duel is not as far fetched as I thought. Thanks Fionn. Maybe the movie was more realistic than I first realized. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 I actually quite liked this movie it wasn't a doco on sub combat in ww2, but it conveyed a lot of the ideas.. um.. stuff of combat i thought, quite well. o i'm drunk right now btw. it was pacey..heart in the throat stuff, and i thought they tried to convey realism whenever they could. "these boys aren't trained marines!" and all that, for the boarding party.... and general sub stuff was well done. My only gripe was the explosions were too large.. One torp to the fore'd bow of a germ destroyed would probably/maybe sink it in time.. but not likely result in a catastrophic explosion.. the reality was much more gruesome and slow, lingering.. anyway. good movie, go see it i say. night PeterNZ ------------------ .C O M B A T. .V I S I O N. * Film From The Front * http://combatvision.panzershark.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 USS Batfish destroyed 3 Japanese subs in 4 nights, but with radar-fired torps at surfaced targets. http://www.thehistorynet.com/WorldWarII/editorials/1997/0197.htm The article states that as many as 20 Japanese subs were lost to US subs, though there is no data on submerged vs. surfaced. And I'm off to see the flick this afternoon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Allan, Pre-war US sub doctrine included using sonar to fire at surface ships. It was pretty inaccurate. When the war began there were sub skippers who were releived for using this technique because it had been abandoned. They were considered to be not "aggressive" enough. I would doubt whether there were submerged to submerged, sonar guided kills during the war. As Mark IV pointed out, surface yes, that is a matter or record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 I am going to see Das Bootleg tomorrow night. From what I have heard, they ripped off much of Das Boot, Americanize it, and use good special effects. Sure, it will lack historical accuracy, but, it is portrayed more of an action adventure film than a historical representation. I don't really understand the premise. Historically a US DE managed to fight a sub to the surface (or caught it on the surface) and used keen initiative to board it, capture it, and tow it back to the US. It is still in Chicago today. I don't understand how they would manage to trick a German sub into meeting an American sub disguised as a German sub (as, don't you need to have already deciphered their code to figure out where the meeting is in the first place to get the code to decipher it?). Hopefully they will explain this. Possibly using something deciphered through a Luftwaffe code (cracked before the naval code). If not, it will make for an interesting flick to see, whatever the historical innacuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Well, I just came back from it. The explanation is there, but I don't want to post a spoiler- it pretty much works. This was a very good action flick, and as noted by Allan, credit is given at the end to the "real" capturers of the Enigma components, by actual incident and ship names. As far as being a rip of Das Boot, I don't know how you could make a U-boot movie and not have that said, anymore. There are only so many ways to show crewmen looking at the ceiling, listening to depth charges. I would agree with Peter about the explosion, by the way. The German torp packed 180kg of HE which is a lot, but it would take a magazine hit to produce anything close to the destruction this showed. Reminded me of the Death Star going up. Uniforms and weapons generally looked good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 23, 2000 Share Posted April 23, 2000 Hey all, My friends and I just went to see this movie. Overall I thought it was a good movie but nothing too unpredictable happened. There should have been sex. Go see this movie. That's all I have to say. And don't go unless you like big noises. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted April 23, 2000 Share Posted April 23, 2000 Didnt like movie, The depth charging scene totally rubbish!! they never dropped them in such concentrations, And i havent heard of any instance when a U boat could go down to 260 mtrs then resurface.Or take that amount of pounding and still come up to the surface take a few hits from a destroyer then nail the destroyer moving at great spead with first shot To over the top for me ------------------ "Some people don't see the light until they first feel the heat" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted April 23, 2000 Share Posted April 23, 2000 Actually the torp duel was not fought using sonar, but from bearings via hydrophone, the "ears" of the subs, I believe.I would think that would be really tough to hit anything that way... I really liked the movie though, especially Harvey Keitel. Can anybody tell me when the Germans started messing around with acoustic homing torps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted April 23, 2000 Share Posted April 23, 2000 IIRC the anti-escort acoustic homing eels started to become available in mid to late 43. In any event they were only available in limited quantities. usually only enough for one, or two per boat per patrol. Again IIRC, they would usually be loaded in the stern tube(s). I'm sure someone here can confirm, or deny, eh? ------------------ Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getthat_wreckoff_theroad Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 How does the film compare to Das Boot ?? I thought Das Boot was superb and really had a sense of tension and claustrophobia about it. Is this recreated in U-571 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertanker Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 I thought the Germans started deploying acoustic homing torpedoes in response to The Incredible Mr. Limpet (or as they referred to him, Der Limpet). Oh, sorry, I'm getting my Hollywood submarine movies mixed up again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Coincedently..... Interestingly enough, yesterday the History Channel (US) had a special about this flick. They had two historians, the director, several cast members...and most importantly, a German U-boat CO and a CMM from a US sub. The director stated, uncatagorically that his goal was to show the viewers what WW2 sub combat was like. The two historians, when asked if the movie was more "Hollywood than history" stated that the movie was more "history than Hollywood". The two actual sub vets said the movie had little realism and was more Hollywood. The German CO was emphatic in that...the US vet was also. Amongst the complaints...the depth charge pattern (as previously stated by Titian), the number of charges, the damage to the boat...(special note...subs aren't riveted...they are welded), the combat scenes were considered inaccurate as well. The host was amused that the vets disagreed with the historians. I was amused too, but I suspect, for different reasons. Jon Bon Jovi is startlingly inarticulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Actually the S-boats did have riveted hulls. I think the first time welding was used in US subs was with the introduction of the Cachalot class in the early 30's. ------------------ Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Darryl: I was referring to the U boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gyrene251 Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 This film is good entertainment. If you are looking for a good attempt to be historically factual...fogettaboudit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Wreck, I saw this movie over the weekend, and as far as I'm concerned, this film isn't even close to "Das Boot". chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Actually, I saw it Friday night, and I do not recall seeing any rivets popping off the hull, although I do recall seeing a number of bolts that were holding pipe joints together having their heads sheared off. Quite a few of those, actually. That seemed rather realistic to me. On the whole, I thought it was fairly entertaining, with the usual amount of Hollywood thrown in there. CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Hollywood level seemed a little high when I saw it. I also thought the depth charges were a little underpowered. Several of them almost directly hit the sub and there isn't that much damage. Also the destroyers guns were far too weak. They directly hit the sub several times, I believe, and there is almost no damage. Just my Canadian $0.03 ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 AHAHAHA!!! I found out whats wrong with this movie!!! Theres no gut wrenching emotional scene like in SPR! At the end of the movie we all just got up and left with no sense of real victory or anything. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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