Should spotters be spotted?

[IPA]

I couldn't find a thread on this one in the search, there seem to have been dozens of threads on spotters, so if I'm going over old ground here, let me know and I'll put on the breaks.

In the simplest terms (the upper limit of my literary skills), there are certain enemy infantry units in the game, that once identified you'll always want to take out at the earliest opportunity. Two units that come to mind are HQs and artillery spotters. HQs to reduce command and control and spotters for the obvious reason. Now on a given battle field, in the heat of battle, would you really be able tell them apart from other infantry units? They wouldn't look very much different (perhaps a pair of binoculars, a radio, a side arm only, some bloke shouting orders), it would be pretty difficult to make a positive ID.

To specifically target them is perhaps gamey, I've done it many times and gained an unfair advantage because of it, even with full FOW on. Rather then forcing myself to do the decent thing and refrain from this practice, I'd like the FOW for these types of units to be more extreme to prevent this type of tactic (if it's not modelled in already).

Previously, I'd thought the enemy AI lacked aggression when it came to artillery barrages, but the fact of the matter was that their spotters were all dead.

I'd appreciate any feed back.

------------------

"Surrender? Tell them to go to hell."

[Theron]

I agree that artillery spotters are possibly too easily detected as being different than other infantry. I think that HQ units should be easily spotted at this level of wargaming. In real life the front line infantry commanders had to "run" up and down their lines barking out orders and keeping up moral. This made them more vulnerable, not less. This is of course based on books I have read. There are some people with first hand / close to first hand knowledge who probably know better.

Theron

[Guest Mirage2k]

I'd just like to point out that I've very rarely seen a unit "positively" identified at extreme ranges. Usually they still have the question mark next to their designation. Sometimes your guys will be wrong.

That being said, I do think that still is a little too easy to ID spotters and such at long ranges. I guess my position would depend on knowing exactly what kind of equipment they carried. How big was this radio, anyway?

-Andrew

------------------

VOTE BLAH FOR PRESIDENT!

Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

BLAH IN 2000!

[Chupacabra]

HQ units may be another matter, but arty spotters seem to be, in my experience, significantly harder to spot than regular infantry anyway.

This is an extreme example, but it might be illustrative. In a QB I played against the AI two or three days ago, I was attacking against a village. I cleaned the enemy out of the buildings, and all was good. Five turns later, the game ended. Looking at the end map, I noticed that on the top floor of a building in which I had stuck a squad and a half of infantry was an arty spotter which I had never noticed.

Again, that was an extreme example, and I know that units in a building can sometimes fail to see each other for a while, but 5 turns seemed supernatural. I've also had other, more humdrum examples of cases in which I wasn't able to see a spotter who should have been fairly obvious.

So - there seems to already be a fairly significant penalty to spotting arty spotters, and I'm not sure there needs to be a further penalty. Mmm, that was a long post for a short answer

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Claymore]

In my CM game experience, Arty spotters are difficult (almost impossible) to identify if employed properly. Proper employment should be 200+ metres back of your main forces in a concealed location which gives good LOS. Employed within 200 metres of OPFOR and you risk greatly having them targeted.

In my reading/research I come across numerous pictures of FOs. The most notable characteristic that OPFOR could key off is the amount of radio equipment the FOs carry. To first order, the amount/size of radio equipment grows directly with the size arty. An organic 81mm FO requires only a handi-talkie, whereas going up the battalion, divisional, corps ladder requires substaintial more kit. I will try and dig up a picture for those interested.

Perhaps the only mod for CM IMO would be a graded scale of visiblity for FOs, with company (divisional) level arty being the least (most) visible.

Cheers

[Guest ACTOR]

Check over in the Tips and Techniques Forum. This was brought up over there a couple of times.

[IPA]

Thanks for the replies.

Points about HQs accepted, I didn't think about it hard enough.

Maybe my experiences with spotters were not the norm.

One example was the Utrechweg operation from the Games at war site(nice map).

+

+

+

+

+

+

+

+

+

+

Spoiler

+

+

+

I was defending as the British. The Germans had a serious amount of fire power, about 6 spotters. I had full fog of war on. The spotters were IDed at various distances up to 200m away. They were all casualties before they had a chance to zero in on me, which rather disappointing as heavy barrages were one of the main features of that particular action. Didn't get plastered until the later battle when the Tigers arrived. I only one mortar barrage.

IPA

------------------

"Surrender? Tell them to go to hell."

[L4Pilot]

If not more extreme FOW re: HQ and spotters, then perhaps more random?

My experience has been by the time I can ID HQ or spotters, the damage has been done. And it's always been at close range - sometimes "too" close.

The idea of IDing spotters and leaders at some distance isn't impossible - Ami's didn't put their bars on the back of their helmets as a fashion statement. And the glint of sunlight of binoculars sometimes gave the arty boys away.

BTW, what kind of game were you playing when you took out all the spotters? AI or human opponent? Maybe AI is too agressive in where it puts spotters, i.e. too far forward. Maybe that's what needs to be addressed rather than the chance of ID.

So I don't feel that there's a major error right now in spotting these kinds of units. But let me lose a few in the next battle and I'm sure I'll change my opinion...

Well, you asked for feedback. Feedback on my feedback?

[PvK]

This has been brought up several times before but I for one welcome the point, and agree with it. I think spotters should be harder to spot in cover, and almost never identified as spotters. They never actually fight (another topic), and men just observing would not, I think, be likely to be ID'd as spotters and blasted as much as happens now.

HQ's are a little more debatable, as Theron pointed out, because they could be seen to be giving leadership by yelling commands.

However, although I think CM's abstraction of troops into units is a good idea for many reasons, the comparison to the real-life situation brings up some issues. Even if someone notices that a particular enemy soldier is acting like a commander, unless that unit is a sniper, I don't think that would equate to the whole force realizing "there's the command team" and being able to keep track of where it is and pick it off. In real life, each squad would be much more spread out (which is why when an explosion occurs in the middle of a squad standing in the open, likely only about one guy will be lost). You don't spot the enemy as units and know where their center and direction of movement is in real life. You don't know how many "units" there are, or that it was a 12-man squad that has taken 7 casualties. You see individual men, briefly before they scurry behind cover, and they're all spread out and doing different things.

Anyway, my opinion is that spotters should be very hard to spot in cover, and almost never identified as spotters. I'd prefer most infantry units just be identified as infantry, with a guess at how many men and what weapons they're using, but also randomize their positions, number of units (a squad might seem to be two or three teams), and directions of movement when reporting to the enemy with fog-of-war, and if enemy troop quality is ever shown, make it a rough guess.

That's just my preference though. It's extremely good as is, but that's what I'd recommend for CM2 or whatever.

P.S. Wow what a busy thread - there were only 2 replies when I started writing. Regarding the large radios - if a high-level forward observer team with big conspicuous radar equipment was going to be sent to the front lines, wouldn't they tend to locate the big radio with task-force command or at least hidden behind the combat zone, and then send a couple of guys up with a land line or walkie-talkie to talk with that big radio? I suppose that can be represented by what's now my (and, I've read in other related threads, others') tactic of just hiding the spotters where they can't be spotted, and calling in unspotted missions.

PvK

[This message has been edited by PvK (edited 09-05-2000).]

[IPA]

PvK,

That was perfectly put, I don't need say any thing else, except that the full fog of war setting should be implemented exactly the way you just described it.

L4Pilot,

It was the AI. You could be right.

I'm off to bed, thanks for the comments.

IPA

------------------

"Surrender? Tell them to go to hell."

[Panzer Man]

After my initial complaints about my FO being spotted by an AT gun over a 1000 meters away, I later realized that I was NOT playing with Full FOW.This changes things dramatically in my opinion.I have never seen anything like that happen with FOW on.It is my opinion that

when u play with FOW off,the AI finds the high priority targets much easier.So, when the arty drops it simply targets the FO if he is in LOS.I will never play without Full FOW turned on anymore,It is much more realistic and more fun.

[Nick Carter]

This is a lazy response, as I can't for the life of me remember which of the 20 WW2 books I've read in the past few months had it, but...

When infantry spots a unit a ways off, with binoculars (not that common on the battlefield apparently) and a radio, as well as other kit, it's a good assumption that it's a FO unit. Nobody likes to let FO's go about their business unmolested.

[Jager 7]

FO's if they goof up and get spotted are pretty easy for experienced troops to ID as FOs. Too much radio gear, binos...small team, perhaps maps are in evidence. In CM the only time I have IDed FOs is when playing the AI and they are manuevering with the infantry units at fairly close range.

Now, here is something to ponder. FOs don't usually work in a vacuum. They really need to be quite close to if not directly attached to a platoon or company HQ to be effective. They get their orders and commander's intent from the Commanding Officer of the unit they are supporting. FO's don't just go off on their own and shoot things up as a rule. They are tied very securely into the big picture of fire and maneuver and are in the support business.

Having radio comm with that HQ is not realistic as they usually are right next to or in very close proximity to the CO. For an infantry company manuevering to contact, that mortar and arty FO are within arms reach of the captain. In the defense things could be a little different and the OP could be visited off and on by the CO. Always exceptions to this but the company CO usually has his FOs close at hand.

Something to think about anyway.

Out here....

[Wayne]

I don't know how the rest of you feel, but I think certain designated HQs should be able to spot for arty. I realize that arty. batteries had to have FOs but what about battalion and regimantal arty units? Could'nt the company COs call in fire missions from these? If I'm wrong about this please let me know.

------------------

Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Jager 7]

Wayne,

At the company level your FO is your arty representative. He is the go-to man for all questions concerning arty support.

At the battalion and higher they are not in the call for fire business but the "liaison" business. This means they have a bigger part in planning fires for manuever and coordinating fires to keep the arty hitting the bad guys and not the good ones. They also keep track of where all the company FOs are and which battery is supporting whom etc.

Now, if you are asking is a company CO able to call for and adjust fire...yes, to a degree. They've had classes in it and many from time to time did call for and adjust artillery or mortars. As a rule though this only happens when the FO is no longer servicable. A company or platoon CO wouldn't have the degree of expertise of a trained/experienced FO nor would they have the flexibility of the real FO as he works with that battery daily etc. A CO is also busy taking care of his men and trying to figure out what to do next. He likely has little time to get on the hook and call for fire unless it is a dire emergency.

Hope that helps.

Out here....

[EScurlock]

It didn't take long for American troops in Normandy to figure out that if you were spotted with a pair of binoculars, you'd draw some serious fire. I have no problems at all targeting an observer.

------------------

He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[frag]

I red that in Stalligrad, German Spotters used a kind of periscope to look at the terrain when under heavy fire to avoid direct hit from bullets. But Russian sniper enjoyed to make it explode bettween their hands...

[Banshee]

In the autobiography "Company Commander" by Charles B. McDonald I was noticing that he (charles) almost always called in arty himself and got adjustments from the platoon leaders over the radio. "Citizen Soldiers" and "Band of Brothers", there was many first accounts of non-FO's calling in arty. It really seemed like (amis) company level commanders always had arty on call unless something huge was going on. I think the game uses FO's as a way to limit the (over)use of arty, but I do think there is a slight error if the FO's don't count areas that can be seen by platoon and company commanders as areas under direct observation.

As to the main point of the thread, I've never had any problems with FO's being "overly" targeted, I usually keep them far enough behind the action to keep them from being identified. It makes sense for them to get clobbered when identified.

------------------

Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Cuchulainn]

Am I right in thinking that if a barrage, called for by a FAO is underway, and the FAO is killed, that the barrage ceases?

And should this be the case?

Surely it should continue until all the rounds are expended, with no changes (new targets or cease fires being allowed).