Claymore Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Hello my brothers (and sisters) in arms! In response to a previous thread "Are Shermans Overpriced" on the Forum I managed to get THE Fionn Kelly to initiate battle with me. I wish that I had a website to include pictures (or movies) in this AAR. This means you'all are going to have to make do with my poor verbal skills. During this game Fionn and I have exchanged quite a bit of "talk" about what our plans were. Fionn is a master of giving you the fuzzy end of the truth, hoping to get your forces to react. Since most of my units are loud and proud in his LOS most of my talk has been closer to the "truth". I also wanted to see if I could spook Fionn into a misstep, so my "fuzzy truth" has been in the area of where my artillery is going to fall next. Fionn assures me that he doesn't change his plans based on player verbage or artillery and I would say that is probably 90% correct. Fionn (if he every posts here again) will validate that what I say here is not "Monday Morning Quaterbacking" and that no post-production rationalizations are taking place. This game was really a test of 76mm Shermans against the Uber-Panthers where we have long distance LOS. There is precious little cover and the tinfoil M4s would have to manueuver successfully to get within 300-400m of the PzVs for a kill. Infantry is always important though and I relished the idea of going against Fionn's prowess with small arms. Many predicted that Fionn would kick my ass.... Battle Map: Large 1400m x 2200m Farmland / Day / Clear Turn Length: 40 Timeframe: Nov/44 Points: Axis 3000 Allies 4500 Game Constraints: The German forces excluded are: Tiger King Tiger PzIV/70 Nashorn JagdTiger The Amis forces excluded are: Jumbos Pershings Jacksons 17pdr Tanks Additional Restrictions: 1. Regular/Veteran and maybe a few Crack forces only (there really were not many elite units) 2. Fortifications must be placed at least 200m from map edge (the back must be accessible) Force Purchases: My thoughts about Axis The map was basically a long strip of land with slight high ground at either end and the middle. Copses of trees lay along the setup line for the Axis troops over the width of the map. Typically low ground could be found on the Allied side of these trees, providing some masking from Axis LOS. A frontline that is 2200m long is quite a task for a 3000pt force to cover. Since there were no QB constraints on purchases I reasoned that Fionn would purchase between 5-7 PzVs. With Crack+ crews that would amount to almost half of his total points and that seemed reasonable. I felt that I could counter with 10 76mm M4 Easy-8s. I need the gyro for the maneuvering I would be doing. Besides, the CM forum thread was about M4s vs PzVs and not the value of a flood of Hellcats. (right Smoker?) My friend on the battlefield against the PzVs would have to be the TacAI itself. If I could present the PzVs with many possible low-value targets and then follow with my M4s it might be possible to do well. I stated right off to Fionn that in any engagement at these ranges with M4s against PzVs I expected a 1 +/- 1 loss rate. As for infantry Fionn "told" me to expect SS troops. That and his stated preference to engage at <40m distances meant that I would have to keep him at arms length. American rifle platoons were my only option since mixing in the Airborne seem a little gamey to me. My real terror was to find my squads pounded by artillery. There was precious little cover on my side of the map and even 81mm mortars would reek havoc on my troops. That works both was of course and he had little cover for his troops as well. In order for me to take the battle to Fionn I decided on about ~2(+) companies of riflemen with ~4 105mm VT spotters and ~2 81mm spotters. I chose the 81mm for its SMOKE only, there were times when I would obviously need to mask my movements. To round out the force I included some HTs for their mobile MG firepower, some scout cars and a couple of M8s. I've never managed to do more than distract my opponents with Greyhounds but they are a potent force if ignored. Next Post: The setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted October 6, 2000 Author Share Posted October 6, 2000 The Setup: (Again...I have posted all of this to Fionn so can validate that this is not a post-production rationalized AAR) From the map I could see that Fionn had two choice how to use his peanuts. Either keep them in the shell and fortify some terrain feature or use the "crunchy peanut butter" approach and spread them along the width of the map. I really didn't think that Fionn had enough to split into two separate forces and fight against a 4500 American force. Besides he had very long +800m LOS over most of the map and could pick off the "red shirt" M4s as they advanced. "Crunchy Peanut Butter" Option: The best way to attack this would be for me to use the map edges. Concentrate at one or two locations near the top/bottom of the map, overwhelm the defenders and then roll up his flank. This would allow me to defeat probably half of his forces in detail, before he maneuvered the remainder. Fortification Option: If Fionn did this he would most likely occupy the central highlands on the map. The best way to attack this is to concentrate in the center and put 4500 against 3000. By definition my M4s would operate close to the PzVs and long distance kills would not be a problem. Now...if I arrayed my forces against option 1 and he was in option 2 I would be SOL. He would have all PzVs at +800m from my M4s and his infantry shielding them from any infantry assaults. Deflection angle would be minimal and since I would have to come TOWARDS him and even fast moving M4s would die by the bushelful. If I arrayed my forces against option 2 and he was in option 1, then things are not so bad. I could overwhelm the center of his MLR and spit his forces in two. Then I could put up a strong shoulder against one AXIS side and turn against the other, rolling it up and defeating it in detail. So...I setup my forces in two lines of infantry (Recon and Assault) against the central highlands. Two platoons of M4s would lie out of LOS (hopefully) with a reserve M4 squad ready to respond to surprises. The HTs and M8s would follow the infantry and use their firepower to pin the axis infantry. Once the enemy PzVs were located the M4s would rush to optimal engagement range. Arty spotters targeted likely initial enemy strongpoints with 105VT. Next: The Battle is joined! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Ah! Two gentlemen resolving their differences on the field of battle. This is better than sabers at dawn. It brings a tear to my eye. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted October 6, 2000 Author Share Posted October 6, 2000 The Battle Starts! (Some of these facts I know for the truth and others are seen throught the FOW. In no case though have I distorted what happened from what I planned.) Turns 1-5 Well my RECON spits into half-squads and starts off at a run towards the possible Axis locations. "Nobody draws a pension in RECON" in my troop. When my forces go into lager after battle the RECON survivors expect to get first pick of softest beds (and women ) in town. The assault squads follow behind at a MOVE pace. The tanks and HTs don't move at all. First Blood! - To the right of the highland there is a large copse of woods and a full squad of infantry are decimated in a single turn. The remaining RECON hit the dirt taking whatever poor cover they can find in the wheatfield in front of the trees. A call goes into the 105VT spotters! Two half salvos will soon arrive on target but not before another 6 men are killed. Now we see the real value in VT...especially when even half-salvos from 2 spotters arrive at the same time. Since there are double the amount of rounds/sec arriving on target troop morale quickly degrades to ROUTED status. Against Fionn's infantry tactics I will need all the help I can get. To the left of the highlands in the most likely position for enemy strongpoints I find nothing...has Fionn chosen the "peanut butter" approach? Now...I begin to see PzVs too...it appears as though there are at least two within 500m of the central highlands. My men in the wheatfield to the right are taking considerable casualties from 75mm DIRECT fire. From the pattern of craters it appears as though there are at least two PzVs on my far right flank. I've decided....Fionn likes peanut butter! Time to start planning the M4 assault...All eight from my primary assault groups will start towards the left of the highland and the enemy contact point. Then they will divide and sweep around both sides of the highland. 1st platoon to the right and 2nd platoon to the left. I lay smoke to both sides of these advances which will My HTs and M8s will flood the right flank. Assault infantry gets up and moves towards the enemy. Zooks follow behind...I don't think that they will ever get within engagement distances in the first phase of battle. Ahhh....definitely just two PzVs! One right and one left of the central highlands. Plus there appears to be no more than 1 platoon of infantry. My forces should rupture his MLR easily. How the M4s will do remains to be seen. 105VT lands on the woods and predictably the enemy soon lies bleeding. The remnants haul ass out the back of the woods their ears ringing. Surprise...especially from Fionn! One of the PzV is close to the front lines! I would have thought that he would keep them well back use the long arm of the 75mm against me. Ok zook teams!....Time to haul ass...you've got fresh meat within range... Now comes one of the best movies I have seen in quite some time. I really wish you could see how this PzV crew did the Vaterland proud. Basically the rightside M4 platoon, HTs, M8s and zooks arrive at engagement range at the same time. The left side M4 platoon sweep around the left of the hill and surprise a PzV and kill it with a SIDE PENETRATION. At the same time... Rightside PzV kills two 1st platoon M4s with two consecutive shots at ~350m. Actually it goes M4 shot - ricochet! PzV shot - kill, M4 shot - ricochet! PzV shot - kill. Two-for-two against fast movers! Then... PzV kills another M4 (expected, but this makes 3 shots - 3 kills on fast moving M4s for this crew - BRAVO!) then... M8 gets a couple of hits on the PzV - not expecting much here but he did get a GUN HIT that didn't stop the PzV at all - unfair! then... A Zook gets a SIDE UPPER PENETRATION - PzV crew doesn't care - unfair! (but c'est la guerre) then... PzV kills the M8 then... The other M8 gets a TRACK HIT - IMMOBILIZED on the PzV then... Zook gets another SIDE LOWER PENETRATION - PzV crew doesn't care - double unfair! then... 4 Easy-8s from 2nd Platoon sweeping around from the other side of the highlands take shots from the rear quarter at PzV from 200m - they all miss - (I here by downgrade these crews from Crack to Veteran) then... PzV kills another M8 PzV kills a HT Lead Easy-8 from 2nd Platoon kills the PzV with a REAR PENETRATION Except for the M8s moving through smoke the PzV crew got first shot kills on all targets - GREAT even for a CRACK crew The loss of the M8s hurts the most - I expected to lose 2 +/- 2 M4s and lost 3. The M8s were killed as they motored through thick smoke as well. If the zook penetrations had killed the PzV then my losses would have been much more palatable...oh well...now...let's see what I can see.... Next Turns 6-10! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted October 6, 2000 Author Share Posted October 6, 2000 Turns 6-10! Gentlemen as it now stands we have breached the enemy's lines and lie astride his positions! Good work for phase 1 but we have alot of killing (and dieing) left. Now that I'm through his MLR with a full platoon of M4s I need to find cover ASAP from PzVs which lie athwart my postion. My plan is to: 1) put up strong infantry/zook/arty spotters on either side of the breach 2) Recon the Kessel I have formed for hidden enemy platoons 3) reduce any bottled up enemy forces 4) Re-orient and attack either one side while holding the other flank secure. The remaining M4 from 1st platoon will go into cover behind a nearby building. Then if he cannot assist with DIRECT FIRE he will be withdrawn to the reserve M4 squad far behind my lines. Success!...I think I've found nice depressions for both my remaining HTs and M4s. The HTs have alot of ammo for their MGs and are great at pinning enemy infantry. The M4s will go at the rear of the kessel and face back towards my lines and his bottled troops. I see at least 2 enemy icons in the bottle so I know there's some killing to do. There's even a 2 story building right next to the icons and I betcha there's somebody inside. From the depression the M4s should reek havoc on the enemy who are now surrounded. There is some nasty woods just 300m distant from my intended hidey hole so I'm gonna drop some VT on it. This should flush/kill/disrupt any infantry that Fionn might bring from there to assault my tanks. By now I have also established that Fionn has probably purchased 6 PzVs. That will put me at 10:6 armour matchup, fairly good. He has also started moving his infantry towards the shoulders of rupture (even though he said that he would never move them). Maybe he will feed them into the meatgrinder and I can get my kill ratio up. Aaahhh! Gak!...not such great cover for my Shermans after all! My M4s and an 800m distant PzV start trading shots. No...TWO PzVs! Gawd!...stop it guys! Back out of there! Lethal 75mm is lasering in all around them...WANG! a Kraut 75mm RICOCHETS(!!???!!!) off one M4 turret face! Finally they wake up to the fact they are overmatched, pop smoke and I pull them back into cover. <begin applause mode> <cue string section> <close up on narrators face> This is a great factor in CM battle. You really don't know what a site's LOS is until you get there. That's an important feature in CM and it mimics reality properly. Unless you have a pair of Mk 1 eyeballs on site you shouldn't know what it could see it or you. <end applause mode> <shoot string section> <give narrator pink slip> Ok...now just like Fionn said in our emails...I've got four 76mm assets that are safe in cover BUT CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING! Time for a rethink...I've got two PzVs 800m distant on my right flank. I can stream M4 2nd Platoon down into the gully where my HTs are. That position does have proper LOS. During this phase some enemy infantry on right flank collided with my kessel shoulder and was smartly repulsed. My VT arty quickly disrupts his probe and a platoon of my infantry laid into his running troops with rifle fire. I think that there are enemy troops moving in from the left as well. Hoping to spook them I tell Fionn to expect a bunch of arty on their positions. Fionn replies what he always replies "I never deviate from my plan and especially not because of artillery". What actually happens? Well I'm going to scout over there with one of my fast movers and see what I can see. I will target a spare VT spotter on a likely position and await firmer intel. My left flank is firming up after the assault. It took some casualties from a distant PzV but now I've got 2 platoons (+) with zooks just under cover of a small rise. I have a reserve M4 hidden about 300m distant and together they should be enough to hold off what is likely just two platoons and a single PzV on this flank. Damn! As I stream my M4s down I lose one. Although I had a 90 degree crossing deflection and 800m between me and those two PzVs he bags my lead M4 with a catastrophic hit. I think it was a first shot kill as well. BOOOOOOOMMMMM! Time to bring up the remaining tank from 1st platoon and attempt to flank those bad boys. I don't like splitting up my reserve. I need something to counter the left side single PzV. Bringing up 1st platoon's remaining M4 leaves me with two widely separated M4s in my reserve. I can't move them together since moving tanks are visible tanks and I need all the surprises I can get. OK...here's the plan...the remaining 3 tanks from 2nd platoon will spread out and take the two PzVs under fire. They are still 800m distant and really have no chance for a kill but the chances are poor that the PzVs can kill them...Alas they are the same odds that caused the lead M4 to die the last turn. Ok...chalk that one up to a fluke...onward! 1st Platoon's M4 will charge through a gap in the woods and engage the PzVs from the flank. Fionn graciously vacated these woods two turns ago when he moved into the occupying troops into the meatgrinder of my right kessel shoulder. Had the infantry stayed in place they would have secured his flank against this tactic. Now I've got a clear run for two scout cars and the tailing M4. Ok...time to press GO.....and...... Success! Right ON! Just as planned. 1st platoon's M4 avenges his brothers by planting a big old 76mm kiss on the flank of a PzV from 200m....Yeeeee Haaaaa! At the end of the turn I now have 4 Shermans arrayed against only one PzV (somewhere there's another PzV prowling around on that flank too). They encompass 90 degrees of arc and should be able to play peek-a-boo and kill off the PzV. On my left flank the scout car is killed by a 1st shot kill (~400m) since he is moving fast but with zero deflection. He has performed his task of validating the VT spotter's target however before dieing. His 20pt cost will be avenged by the death of at least 80pts of enemy infantry during the next couple of rounds. Kill ratio to date: 3 PzVs against 4 E-8s Remaining forces: 3 PzVs against 6 E-8s **************************************** That's all so far...we are just starting T12. Please post to this thread if you like it so far... Fionn if you're listening...I'll be happy to post your "side" of things if you email it to me. It's been a great matchup so far. Thanks for playing me. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 If??? we like it? This is great. I've learned more just reading your report, than I have in a handful of games. Keep it coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Very interesting. Can't wait to hear the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Claymore - Great narration! Keep it coming! ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 ....drool drool.... WHEN is that copy of CM ever going to get here?? ....drool drool.... engy ------------------ "He who makes war without many mistakes has not made war very long." Napoleon Bonaparte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Hey all you folks playing out a PBEM, how about posting your own AARs. Either while you plan a turn, or immediately after GO, write up what your thoughts were, and your plan for the turn. I'm doing it with a PBEM I'm doing with PeterNZ, but there isn't anything to post yet, (Force selection & initial placement so far) and I forgot to snap a picture of the map and my setup for Turn 1. Ah well, live and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Very cool indeed. There should be more stuff like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Claymore, Keep it coming! I think it is very disturbing how accurate a visual I get from reading these things. Perhaps that is a sign that I have been playing too much?? ------------------ CrapGame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Great AAR Claymore! Hey, you used "gamey" tactics, you map-edge-hugging fast-scout-reconning non-respecter of arbitrary house rules! Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted October 7, 2000 Author Share Posted October 7, 2000 Fionn has requested that I post the following: 1. Could you please post this to the "Germans vs Allied in PBEM" thread. I think those guys there are just like the poor workman. They always blame their tools but never their own tactical failings and it might do them some good to see how someone can pull off a good American attack (plus it'll stop them harping on about the infallibility of Panthers etc.. Two of mine died to first shot kills.) Now, as for the game.... Well, I won't say all that much except to say that I was challenged by Claymore and given a VERY wide map to defend. As such I really couldn't create any strongpoints of note but instead simply had to deploy my forces so as to delay and size up the enemy whilst allowing forces nearby to maneuvre into position to deliver killing blows. When Claymore attacked initially I managed to pin down his attack style quite quickly. It is obvious but effective. Claymore will walk half-squads forward in a line ( separated by some 50 metres lateral displacement) into suspected enemy positions. Once the recon units are killed ( as they have been every time he's reconned a position (since I let him get to within 15 or 10 metres before simply mowing them down in instants) ) he holds in place and targets 105mm VT on my positions. After 1.5 turns of arty he sends his infantry in to mop up the panicked and routed remnants of my platoon. Of course, once he runs out of artillery this tactic will have to change and I'll get to engage him in some very nasty and lose-ranged infantry fighting. I'm looking forward to that time. Until now though Claymore has been good at conserving his 105mm VT as it is his principal anti-infantry weapon. I think Claymore knows as well as I that if his infantry get into a close quarters fight with mine on ground I've chosen that they will come off the worse for wear. As for armour... Well, the prime characteristics of his handling of armour can be summed up as follows: 1. Mass effect. He maneuvres each of his platoons in tich line formation ensuring that whenever they meet a lone Panther they are throwing at least 4 times as many shells at him as he can throw back at them. This ratio ensures victory in such situations. 2. Decoy M20s, M3 HTs and M8s abound. The M20s and M3s are interspersed with the tanks in an attempt to have my tanks engage the M20s and M3s instead of the accompanying Shermans. Obviously Claymore feels that the extra shots his Shermans get while my Panthers take out the M20s is worth the loss of the M20s and M3 HTs. 3. Flanking fires. At all times Claymore seeks to create opportunities for massed flanking fires to rake my Panthers. As his numbers decrease he is being forced to deploy his tanks in smaller packets so, at the moment he is trying to grab my attention frontally with two Sherman 76s while he maneuvres for flank shots with two other Sherman 76s, one on each flank. He is facing an isolated Panther since the Panther on my other flank is blocked from intervening by a large hill and the Panther on the same flank as the isolated Panther is a LONG, LONG way away. Claymore is attempting, quite skillfully, to play mind games. He attempts to ward off threatened moves by intimating that he is calling arty down on them and also seeks to intimidate me by dropping artillery on suspected positions or positions of some movement. He also is basically attempting to mislead me as to his future plans by, rather cleverly, slipping small untruths into largely true assesments of the situation. Since he knows I have his forces well sized up he tells me quite honestly how they are progressing etc ( all information I have readily at hand) but every so often he slips in an untruth intended to make his force seem more powerful than it is or to mislead me as to his next actions. His faith in his artillery is also touching. He seems utterly baffled that I am utterly unconcerned with his artillery but, as I said to Pillar a couple of days ago I view artillery as I view rain. One cannot avoid the rain so your only choice is whether to look like a fool running from cover to cover or whether to square your shoulders, stand up straight and march directly through it accepting it as inevitable and saying "to hell with it.". With that said it should be noted that he has only met two of my infantry platoons in combat and has misjudged the extent and disposition of my reserves quite markedly. This won't be of import immediately but will factor in greatly once the armoured forces are reduced to one or two tanks. I don't know who will win the armoured battle but I DO know that whoever wins won't win it by much. Claymore handles his armour well. Not in the style I would handle it but he definitely sees the main chance and takes it. Match that with the gaggle of distracting M20s, M3s etc running around and it becomes quite tough to reduce his forces. It is highly enjoyable though and I've likened it to a good chess match at the moment. He has two tanks uncommitted and I, as the defender, also have some uncommitted forces. I won't commit mine until I see those two tanks though. He who commits his reserve last has a great advantage and I'm not about to throw that away." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Every AAR I seem to see looks gamey to me! Always Panthers/Tigers & SS v's Super Shermans/Mega Tank Destroyers/Fireflys & crack troops. Why not let the computer pick a more realistic force for a proper challenge and find a way to work with less than top notch equipment! Good AAR by the way, I'm just stirring things up a bit... ------------------ I have a vewy gweat fwiend in Wome called Biggus Diccus. [This message has been edited by Rex_Bellator (edited 10-06-2000).] [This message has been edited by Rex_Bellator (edited 10-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Great game! I'm gonna set this one up to play with the AI as soon as my copy of CM arrives. Then try it with hellcats instead of E8 sherms. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Herr Odd, want me to AAR as well? And where's my turn damn it! You Cesspool types are sloowww PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Great fun to read! Thanks & keep 'em coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: Every AAR I seem to see looks gamey to me! Always Panthers/Tigers & SS v's Super Shermans/Mega Tank Destroyers/Fireflys & crack troops. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Keep your eyes peeled. Pillar is currently working me over in a QB - he's chosen a Panther and a TD, I picked two M18's and an M8. Oh yeah, we have some infantry (and an assault boat). He says he's going to AAR the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Yes, and if I loose, it will solely be attributed to aaronb's titanium assault boat. Not only am I planning on doing an extensive aar on this one, but I'm making a tactics website that will be a central location for all AAR's and will also link directly to all articles/tactics etc. on Madmatt's page (permission has been granted). One thing I have learned is that a Panther is no match against a well used M8 HMC -- YEAH, you heard me Any peice of armour with a gun is a major harrassment when used correctly against a Panther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: Any peice of armour with a gun is a major harrassment when used correctly against a Panther.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Especially if it has a faster turret... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted October 7, 2000 Share Posted October 7, 2000 Aaron, Don't forget your Greyhound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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