killmore Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 I generated 10 random scenarios yesterday. Both Axis and Allies were supposed to have mostly Tanks. I selected 1000 point scenarios. But German side never got a single expensive tank (no panter, tiger, kTiger, jagdTiger or anything that heavy) I it just my luck or random scenarios never get these? (Scenarios were still exciting! like 2 shermans + 5 armored cars vs hercer,2*75 gun, and 75mm half truck) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 killmore, Very, very strange. I did same thing last night and all German armor was available. Did you choose something besides Wehrmacht, SS, etc. Some the the German troop settings like Falschrimjager have a very limited number of AFV's available because those armed service branches of the Reich had only a limited, if any, standard assignment of any AFV types. I think all you need to do is set your type to Wehrmacht/SS and you will be all set to purchase your armor and all types will show up on the pick list. Then if you want to have platoonn of Fallschrimjagers like I did, just set the setting to that and purchase your infantry. That's what I did in the scenario I created last night. Mikester out. [This message has been edited by Mikester (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Killmore, You're saying you let the computer pick all the vehicles, right? ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 I was assuming you were trying to select your forces? But like CrapGame inquired, are you letting the computer pick the forces? If so, I doubt that you'd see a King Tiger all that often for example. Go purchase the units yourself and see what one costs. They don't come cheap. And I'd assume if you let the computer pick the units it probably picks them based on some type of probability where the unit cost is factored in which partly accounts for "commonality" of how often that AFV actually ever showed up on the battlefield in real life. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 21, 2000 Author Share Posted June 21, 2000 Well - I let random scenario to select everything for me 10 times (but asked for Armor battle). I always selected Wermacht. I did not expect king tiger - but I expected that Wermacht might get something as good as Panter at least once. That never happens! I think Panters should be as common as panzerIV by the end of the war. I got many pIVs but never a Panter. It just feels wrong. No heavier tanks - not even once. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Killmore, in a word, no. The Panther was nowhere near as common as the PanzerIV. I'm at work, and the book is at home, but just from my memory German factories turned out ~6500 or so later PanzerIVs (H and J) but only a couple thousand Panthers. The situation was even more imbalanced for heavier vehicles. IIRC the book said that only a couple dozen Tigers were on the western front in the period immediately after DDay, and the maximum number of King Tigers ever deployed in the west came during the Ardennes offensive, when 57 (one-seventh of total production) were deployed; all but a handful were lost. DjB DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Yes but the computer should pick the panther SOME of the time. He said he tried it 10 times. I would think the computer would have selected it at least once or we can assume that when we Quick Battle the AI it will never have Panthers or Kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 21, 2000 Author Share Posted June 21, 2000 Is that 6500 pIV in 1945 or during the entire war? If that means during entire war then Panter should be as common as pIV due to attrition. And if it only means 1945 then in I should see panter 1/3 of the time I see pIV. That just was not happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killmore: Is that 6500 pIV in 1945 or during the entire war? If that means during entire war then Panter should be as common as pIV due to attrition. And if it only means 1945 then in I should see panter 1/3 of the time I see pIV. That just was not happening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would be careful to base conclusions on 10 randomly generated scenarios. It certainly is something to pick up, but some more testing might be necessary. I would do it, but I don't have the game. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 21, 2000 Author Share Posted June 21, 2000 I am at work right now - so I can not test it right now... Anyone wants to try? Parameter were: Wermacht, Armour scenario, 1000 points, Axis-defender - I think that is it. I had to go to sleep after 10 tests... It was after midnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Since I don't have CM to occupy my time with, here's some numbers I dredged up: Total production run for the Panzer IV ('36 - '45): 8544 The Ausf H reached the largest production figures of any model with 3774 from 4/43 to 7/44. In 6/44 the Ausf J went into production, finishing off in 3/45 with 1758 units produced. The Panther (Pz V), during 43 - 45 saw 5976 units produced, broken down thus: Ausf D: 850 (12/42 - 9/43) Ausf A: 2000 (8/43 - 5/44) Ausf G: 3126 (3/44 - 4/45) A total of around 400 Panthers were lost in the Normandy campaign. Then, of course, you have to take into account losses and deployment to other fronts, so total production numbers really don't give a true percentage of what was where when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobVarak Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Killmore, I just ran those specs and ended up with the Germans having 2(!) Panthers. Actually turned out to be a nice little battle. ------------------ Rob Varak Editor Site on Sound: The Web's Premier Site For Musical Discussion www.siteonsound.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke: A total of around 400 Panthers were lost in the Normandy campaign.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Any idea how many Panzer IV were lost there? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 By late in 1944, Panthers were about as common as PzIVs on the Western Front overall. Not quite 50-50, but close. The thing is, they were not very evenly distributed at all. Some of the "name" Panzer divisions (Lehr, SS, etc) had more than 50% Panthers, some not so famous considerably less. There was a point in Market Garden where an entire brigade of Panthers supported by PzGrenadiers attacked (IIRC) one of the US Airborne divisions trying to hold the road open. At that time, it was the largest concentration of Panthers anywhere. Needless to say, they cut the road relatively easily, but had to withdraw when their supporting units did not show up. Jeff Heidman [This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 06-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonicc Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Well I just did a test and after 8 tries with the settings of Axis Armor No restrictions on service medium quality Attack 1000 pts allied attacker november 44 day rain Allied armor no restrictions and The axis have: 2 Jagdpanthers 3 JPZ IV 1 Panther A 1 75mm inf gun 1 schreck previous tries I had one where all armor was hetzers and another with a mix of mark IV and pz IV/70s' That was fun will have to go back and see what else i can get from the computer. Teutonicc The member Formerly Known as Teutonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 **** happens ! Sometimes you get Panthers sometimes you don't. Don't go making a big deal of something until it happens a lot more than 10 times. I've often got Panthers and Tigers as computer-picked units in games. You just got unlucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killmore: I always selected Wermacht. I did not expect king tiger - but I expected that Wermacht might get something as good as Panter at least once. That never happens! I think Panters should be as common as panzerIV by the end of the war. I got many pIVs but never a Panter. It just feels wrong. No heavier tanks - not even once. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 06-21-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, I just gotta. "There's an aweful lot of pantin' goin' on around here." I won't even touch the Wehrmacht one. ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 22, 2000 Author Share Posted June 22, 2000 I am not asking for Panter - all I am saying that Panters don't happen often enought. Yes it is OK to fight with pIV. It took someone else 8 tries to finally get Panter. (No other heavies mentioned) So it "feels" like there is just disproportionally many "lesser" tanks. People write that heavies are possible - I am very happy about it. My only question whether it happens often enought. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Any idea how many Panzer IV were lost there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately, I can't seem to find that anywhere --- but I did come up with this: In May of '44 OB WEST had approx. 1600 panzers and StuGs available, and of those: 674 Mk IV 514 Mk V (Panther) So, as somebody else pointed out, the breakdown was about 50/50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 ok here's the scenario... the remains of a german armored company trying to hold a town... 4 pzIVs and 3 panthers. somehow you have the renmants (company-sized) of a pioneer battalion and some anti-aircraft trucks. throw in some sdfzs, perhaps even a 37mm aa version. then as the u.s. you have two m5 platoons and a sherman platoon with an m20 platoon and a company of engineers in m3 halftracks. plus a reinforcement company on trucks later on. and to make it more interesting give the americans and germans roughly the same 81mm mortar capability and no more... maybe a couple of fos for the amis and 5 or 6 81mm mortars for the germans with 40 rounds each. give the germans mines and wire and roadblocks if the editor has those and make it a semi urban environment with more than one layer of buildings so infantry can hide in those 'inner belts' of buildings which can't be seen from outside of the town. so although the amis have far more vehicles they have to enter the narrow confines of a town with their engineers... against defending german engineers... both very deadly close combat type squads. without heavy artillery it would result in more skilled house-to-house infantry tactics instead of that bludgeon approach the barrage seems to resemble. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 I created a quick battle last night. I was Germans, 1000 pts, armored forces for both sides, allied probing attack, medium map, small hills, farmland, in Feb 45. Let the computer pick everything. It gave me 3 panthers, 1 tiger, 2 StuG42, 1 halftrack and a quad 20mm flak gun. Ended up facing 6 m4A3W+ shermans, a chaffee, and a mess of infantry. Final score Germans 100, Allies 0, Total German Victory turn 14. I wanted to know how much of a point bonus is given in a probe versus an attack? But anyway, the Computer does pick some of the cats. ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 22, 2000 Author Share Posted June 22, 2000 After running Random scenario 30 times: (I had no time to play but I had time for quick game setup) Hetzer appeared in 22 scenarios. PIV appeared in 19 scenarios. Panter appeared in 9 scenarios. Tiger appeared in 3. King Tiger in 1. JagzPanter/Tiger in 0. So yes panters do appear but less frequently than they should. Why did Hetzer showed up 22 times? Was it a common german AFV? Or did it happen because it was "cheap" to buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke: Unfortunately, I can't seem to find that anywhere --- but I did come up with this: In May of '44 OB WEST had approx. 1600 panzers and StuGs available, and of those: 674 Mk IV 514 Mk V (Panther) So, as somebody else pointed out, the breakdown was about 50/50.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks von Lucke, that is interesting, I would have thought there are more Panzer IVs. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Killmore, You got a lot of Hetzers because they're cheap and because (correct me if I'm wrong) you had the Germans as the defenders in your Quick Battle. The computer is much more likely to choose Hetzers when on the defense. If you really want to get a better statistical sampling, do a Quick Battle which sets Axis for "armored" forces, with Axis as the attacker, and Assault as the battle type. That'll give you a large German armored force. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Thanks von Lucke, that is interesting, I would have thought there are more Panzer IVs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The funny thing, is this an extremely common misconception, almost a myth. Everyone thinks that the Panther was such a difficult or complex machine to build, when in fact, due to standardization and new technology, the Panther, which was almost half again the weight of the PzIV cost the Germans almost exactly the same amount to build in "dollars", and was actually quicker to manufacture. It was inefficiencies in German bueracracy that kept the factories churning out PzIVs from switching to full scale Panther production in 1943. By 1944, there should not have been any more PzIVs being produced, and without a drop off in abolute numbers of medium tanks produced. The Panther was put into battle too early, and suffered for it at Kursk. I think that tainted the Panthers reputation as a reliable and serviceable vehicle unfairly for the rest of the war. The Geman produced about 850 PzVa's (the ones that had the nasty habit of bursting into flames when you start the engine) and over 5000 PzVD/G. I think after Kursk all the A models were rebuilt to the D/G model anyway. How is that for way more info than you need? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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