DesertFox Posted April 13, 2000 Share Posted April 13, 2000 Hi folks I thought perhaps some of you are still interested in this german device. It is a great pleasure for me to present the results of a mutual cooperation between Robert Cunningham and me. We both put together all data available for us on the topic of: THE NAHVERTEIDIGUNGSWAFFE A tank fitted device which was and still is surrounded with much misconception. We hope with our work, we are able to throw a little light on this matter and make clear what the Nahverteidigungswaffe was and, perhaps more important, what it was not. Cheers Helge ============== Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 13, 2000 Share Posted April 13, 2000 Thanks to you both for a valuable contribution! I'll keep my eye out for references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakker@home Posted April 13, 2000 Share Posted April 13, 2000 Yeah, Good article ! Whoops i seem to have bookmarked that, oh well. Grtz S Bakker [This message has been edited by Bakker@home (edited 04-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted April 13, 2000 Share Posted April 13, 2000 My one and only post on this subject (once burned yah know...) First off: Good article, Thank you. This article seems to bear out what (little) I discovered 2-3 years ago while researching a set of miniatures-based rules (1/72 scale). This 'weapon system' was used almost exclusively for discharging smoke shells and was of only minor help in repelling infantry close assaults (at best). Imagine, trying to fire a signal gun/HE round through the FIXED Nahverteidigungswaffe tube from the inside of a moving AFV, in combat. Now consider the specific placement of the Nahverteidigungswaffe in the turrets of most of the vehicles. The weapon's placement would seem to preclude the gunner or assistant gunner from performing their main duties. Then even after the weapon was fired, and if the enemy were in the right spot (remember FIXED tube again) the blast from the HE round was very small and the rate of fire would have been abysmal (how many rounds per minute is a 'flare-gun' anyway? ) Last, but not least: I have never read of a SINGLE account of a Nahverteidigungswaffe using HE successfully in combat. I personally feel that this weapon system has acquired a stature that is FAR in excess of its practical/historical use on the W.W.II battlefield (beyond that of smoke discharger). I believe this is partly due to its very obscure history, partly due to its novelty and partly due to the general 'Umber Panzer' mania so prevalent in wargamers. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted April 13, 2000 Share Posted April 13, 2000 Extremely well done. A doff of the old tin pot to you both...S! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted April 13, 2000 Share Posted April 13, 2000 A job well done friends Great to see a good discussion ending up in a thorough yet concise presentation of what really is known and what is part of the myths. And an odd subject it is. A weapon mounted on the extremely well documented German panzers being so mysteriously undocumented. I guess that’s what makes it so interesting Thanks for making the effort! M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Great job! One question: you state that the Sprenggranate was most likely not very effective, possibly even less than a regular handgrenade. But then in one of the German original texts it says that the Sprenggranate should only be used from armored vehicles or from excellent cover, and that single shrapnel pieces can fly as fas as a 100m (i.e. further than the effective range of a standard handgrenade). How is that possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: Great job! One question: you state that the Sprenggranate was most likely not very effective, possibly even less than a regular handgrenade. But then in one of the German original texts it says that the Sprenggranate should only be used from armored vehicles or from excellent cover, and that single shrapnel pieces can fly as fas as a 100m (i.e. further than the effective range of a standard handgrenade). How is that possible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe they tried to avoid law suits. Sort of like the 'Warning, this product contains nuts'-message on a pack of peanuts. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 we weren't ever able to find exact explosive compositions for the sprenggranate. I do have some test reports showing that the standard rifle grenade (30mm) produced better fragmentation than any of the rounds for the Leuchtpistole/kampfpistole. The fact that individual fragments were found to travel as far as 100m is not surprising but by no means did all of the fragments travel that far. For the sake of comparison 81mm mortar HE rounds (US modern) have a lethal bursting radius of 17-19 meters depending on type. The warning merely covers the problem of the short fuze (1 second) that would detonate the round 7-10 meters away. Without cover the firer would be as likely to be wounded as anybody he was aiming at. But I think it was primarily intended to differentiate between this time-fuzed round and the normal impact-fuzed rounds intended to engage more distant targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 A question, then, on the use of smoke shells (Schellnebelkerze). The illustrations (for Panther and Tiger) clearly show the orientation of the Nahverteidigungswaffe to the rear of the vehicle. If the primary purpose was to fire smoke (presumably to mask a withdrawal, or at least a repositioning), why wouldn't it face forward? It seems to me that a rearward firing smoke round would require a tank to rotate its vulnerable rear turret toward the enemy to create a screen, or to fire and then back through the screen. Ditto for the illumination round- firing to the rear would silhouette my tank and illuminate those of my comrades. For firing HE at close-assaulting ground troops it seems to make a little more sense, to protect the lightly-armored and -armed rear. I look forward to pictures of its placement in StuG III, one of which fired smoke forward to blind my Shermans, and fell back behind a rise (in CE). Perhaps the chief purpose of the Nahverteidigungswaffe evolved over time, designed as a utility, and with experience turned into a weapons system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted April 14, 2000 Author Share Posted April 14, 2000 Thanks Guys for the kind words. MarkIV, you seem to miss that the Nahverteidigungswaffe was 360 degrees traversable from inside. So the rounds fired could be aimed at whatever direction necessary. After Easter I will put up a StuG III pic that shows the NahVtdgW. It was located a little bit in front of the loaders hatch on the right side behind the maingun. cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ [This message has been edited by DesertFox (edited 04-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 15, 2000 Share Posted April 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>you seem to miss that the Nahverteidigungswaffe was 360 degrees traversable from inside<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Didn't exactly miss it- it's just that both internal and external pictures make it hard to envision. It doesn't look as though there is enough clearance to rotate the thing forward, WITH a Kampfpistole attached (though one picture shows both positions, after rotation). And the placement of the port is always at the rear of the turret. But it must have been so. Isn't the photo of the Sturmtiger mounting on the fixed rear of the superstructure? (too good a subject to let it sink to the bottom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Mark IV, The NahVW was mounted in a hatch at the back of the superstructure on the Sturmtiger, but the launch tube itself could still rotate through 360 degrees so as to fire the grenade in any direction. Only the elevation at which the round was fired could not be altered. And this was not very significant since the round would detonate after traveling only an extremely short distance (7-10m). I can't judge whether the mounting locations of theses things on any vehicles could prevent it from being rotated fully because of something blocking it. But the signal pistol should never be a part of the problem because it is not attached at all. The barrel is just inserted and the trigger squeezed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 Fox, Nice research on the Nav...er...however you spell it. Just wanted to say though, while viewing your web site using my 17" moniter, you have to scroll to read the article. You might want to think about shrinking your frame there so the user doesn't have to do this. ------------------ Everything in moderation...except CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj. Bosco Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 Colonel, you might want to change your res. It's not the size of your monitor that would determine a thing like that, it's the resolution. Great article Fox, I've been wondering what the uh... y'know naversomethingorother was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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