CMII

[Chris Jenkins]

OK, as soon as the IP and color diagrams are out, let's chain Steve and Charles to their desks and get CMII rolling. IV tubes should be attached and bedpans issued in order to maximize the work effort.

I wonder how Soviet troop quality will be abstracted? Morale, discipline, and marxmanship are funny with the Popovs. Maybe Green troops will have Conscript firepower, but increased morale and discipline. Regular might have the same value difference, and so on.

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"Rinky dinky stinky thinky"

[DrD]

I just had an idea on how to simulate C+C dificulties in the Russian (or any) army. How about

making it so that platoon leaders have to be in command of company commanders who in turn

have to be in command of battalion etc? This would represent the lack of initiative of junior officers

in the Soviet army. In game terms it would mean less flexibility in that all platoons of a certain

company would have to be kept togethor. If a commander was out of command then all his

subordinate units would be out of command too. Obviously higher commanders would need larger

command radii.

What do y'all think?

[ntg84]

Some how vodka has to be there, Russkies didn't fight without vodka.

[Frenchy]

And don't forget the political commisars which were prompting the grunts not to retreat and if they did, they were shot. That will make for some interesting modeling.

[Mikester]

DrD,

Sounds like a pretty interesting idea. Maybe a bit too restrictive perhaps, but then again maybe not. Perhaps w/ right degree of chained C and C that you are proposing and conscript / green troops a fairly accurate model of how Soviet troops acted / reacted in the early part of the war at least. Give them a ton of these guys and about all you could do with them is what they did in real life. Mass them and move them forward to be mown down by the MG 42's and the artillery of the Germans. After enough of the massed human waves had moved forward and gone to their deaths the Germans ammo would be mostly used up and the next wave would hit and it would be hand to hand from there. I understand that's the way things went any number of times during Russian attacks on the Eastern front. Even as late as 1943 and 1944. Although they had generally gotten much better at formulating and executing attacks by then and gotten away from the massed attack approach.

Mikester out.

[This message has been edited by Mikester (edited 06-21-2000).]

[GreasyPig]

I too can not wait for CMII (even though I don't have CMI yet!). As much as I'm interested in the western front and how the battles there were intense I know the Russian front was incredible. I mean this the German army prior to and at its peek. The Battles and map in CM2 need to be BIG to account for all the long range tank duels!

GreasyPig

quote from an old wise man

Flounder: "OH BOY IS THIS GREAT!"

[Jeff Heidman]

I, for one, really hope that they decide to implement some nationality distinctions. I know that you can scale experience pretty discretely, but there is more to nationality distinctions than a linear experience modifier.

I *can* understand the difficulty they will have with this however. As an ASL player, we still argue constantly over whether American elite infantry should have a 7 or 8 morale...

But that kind of flavor is what really makes the game. You could never re-create the ASL like distinctions with just the tools CM currently offers. Not that you would necessarily want to, but I am just illustrating the point. There were more differences between various nationailites than just the weapons they happened to be using, and the generic exerience number.

BTW, does BTS plan to update CM1 with whatever engine changes they make in CM2?

Jeff Heidman

[Stephen Smith]

Another idea to simulate the Russians: put in a huge delay for orders (say 1:00, 1:30). That way, your units are very non-reactive, and it would actually pay to give them orders spanning several turns (i.e. give them orders to move through three or four minutes of distance)-if you don't-if you try to give them orders every turn-you end up moving every OTHER turn due to the harsh delay penalties. Then, make only company commanders and up as 'leaders' with a delay override benefit. Thus, your forces will be a slow reacting-straight forward attacking, monolithic mass, with small pockets (surrounding the company commanders) of quicker reacting forces trying to hold the whole thing together.

This may not be THE solution-just food for thought.

Steve

[killmore]

These ideas are only good for early war, later quality of Sovit troops improved.

The problem was not really poor troop quality but middle level commander who got the post only due purges and had no experience.

Germans often found Soviet troops courageous and willing to fight to the death. (some did some did not of course...)

If you are saying that most Soviet troops were that bad - then you are severly diminishing German tactical briliance, value of suprise attack and german veteran troops. Soviet troops were not veterans.

Finally France and England had also more troops in 1940 but they had to flee/surrender. Was their troop quality also that bad?

[This message has been edited by killmore (edited 06-21-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

I think I would *hate* having my troops act in the manner some are describing, i.e. vastly increased command delays and such.

Heck, the reason I play wargames is that I like to micro-manage my units to achieve optimal results.

Who would want to play the Russians where their nationality distinction is that you, the player, have a vastly reduced ability to play the game? Yuck.

Better to just make their leaders not have as many bonuses as others, or different kind of bonuses. Throw in some early war commisar "leaders" with some very unique abilities (like a +3 to rally, but if the unit fails a rally check they take casualties...). Maybe make their squads slow to react in the execution phase to new threats, etc., etc.

There is a lot you can do without tying the players hands and taking away the very reason to play the game to begin with.

Jeff Heidman

[Sergei]

Once in early stages of Operation Barbarossa, when Germans met KV-1, they were having very difficult time with it. None of their guns could penetrate it, they just had hit its track so it sat immobilized on a tactically important spot, blocking Germans advance for hours. Germans brought a FlaK 88 within range thinking they were unspotted, but then the KV's turret turned to their direction and destroyed the gun.

I wonder if CMII can model that kind of operation...

[nijis]

"I, for one, really hope that they decide to

implement some nationality distinctions. I know that you can scale experience pretty discretely, but there is more to nationality distinctions than a linear experience modifier."

There's an excellent post from about a year ago on why BTS decided against ASL-style nationality distinctions (although some special treatment for the Russians is probably in order). It's http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000556.html.

Re updating the CM1 engine with CM2 so you can play Western Front battles with the latest version, I think that BTS already said they're going to do that.

[Jeff Heidman]

nijis, thanks for the link.

I cannot say that I blame them. I definitely think that there are nationality characteristics, but would agree that they are pretty dang hard to quantify. ASL/SL did so, but they made some (possibly) arbitrary decision on how to do that. Shrug. It adds a lot to the flavor of ASL, but I would agree that it would be hard to actually support with objective evidence.

I do not think BTS should instill the same kind of thing, but it would be interesting, as part of CM2, to discuss what would be used as a nationality characteristics model, seeing as they will probabaly be doing *something* for the Russians.

And certainly if they some day do the Japanese, they will have to come up with something else. I would say that while the Russians and Japanese are extremes of how different nationalities can be, the other differences are ones of scale, not that they are not there.

Jeff Heidman

[nijis]

Actually, the link only works if you type it in without the period at the end. Anyway, I agree with you about BTS' decision to leave national characteristics out. National characteristics in ASL were mostly good for color, and in CM you get enough color with the uniforms and the voices. I'm particularly looking forward to the Finns in CM2, because my ihana Suomilainen wife has promised to give the game a spin if the little men shout cool things in Finnish.

[ASL Veteran]

Japanese would have to have some national characteristics. In ASL they act like no other troops in the game ... and I love playing as them. I think ASL has Japanese absolutely pegged. Tough infantry, but a brittle force that tends to fritter away if you are not careful. Most of my friends have "Jap scare" because I have trounced them so many times using the tough Japanese infantry. They began to think of them as superhuman. Yep, you have to get into a completely different mind set when handling Japanese infantry. If you use them poorly you will run out of troops quickly. If you use them correctly - nearly unstoppable.

[Kraut]

All i want to know is how much of the east front they plan to model.

Are they going to include every vehicle and weapon from '41 to '45, or are they gonna start from '43?

I hope they start from '41, 'cause the more stuff is in the game, the better it is

MK

[killmore]

I don't see the problem!!!

It is already done!

If behaviour of conscript/regular/veteran is correct.

Germans have 50% regular troops and 50% veterans.

SovietUnion has 50% conscript and 50% regular. So behaviour of conscripts should be "BAD". Set Soviets to normal conscripts. (Fanatical conscripts sometimes at times)

I don't think we need any special case for Soviet troops.

As for Japanese? - Just set them on fanatical conscripts.

Just don't make game unplayable as Soviets. We can do everything correctly right now.

I don't see why soviet veterans should be any worse then german.

[Guest Kinch]

For Wargamers, the East Front holds

an extreme fascination ever since Panzerblitz came out in the early 1970's.

I understand why CM mission started on the West Front ... more casual interest plus the

"East Front" fanatics will buy into any

well made wargame.

Although I feel The WAR (WW1 + WW2) in Europe was won or lost in the East, the tactical scenarios CB offer are just fine to basically understand the tactics of the day - East or West (WW2).

However, in the back of my mind, as I play a scenario and try understand history better ... a small tactical struggle in Stalingrad (say the tractor works) trumps a similar city action in the west. So much more was on the line.

You see, a great/fun tactical scenario can be created even around the US Invasion of Southern France. And the move up the Rhone.

Tactically great .. strategically kinda "who cares"

East front fanatics like to combine tactically great into a replay of a strategically critical situations.

- Kevin

[DanE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I understand why CM mission started on the West Front ... more casual interest plus the

"East Front" fanatics will buy into any

well made wargame.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I remember correctly, another reason for starting with the West Front was to give BTS a headstart on the research needed for the East Front. For the most part, BTS will not have to research German AFVs that appeared on the East Front from '43 on.

This means more time to research the Russian and early war German units, plus the other nations present.

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Dan