SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 Ok this aint kool - I'm playing LD as allies - I have taken some heavy losses but ahve a few intact units left I also have taken my last HELLCAT ( loaded with 26 rounds of HE, 25 rounds IIRC AP) and proceeded to remove all enemy tanks I also have take an vict at the end of muy turn it auomatically surrenders me what gives - IMHO this shouldnt be an AI thing at ALL Especially when we play competitively _ i had a fighting chanceto at least reduce the quality of win to aminor vict, or possibly more depending on how effectively I could deploy my tank - and so far I'm doing VERY well -- PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS FIXED ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 I believe that this is fully intentional - if your losses are too severe, the game will end. Out of curiosity, what was your global morale when this happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 18, 2000 Author Share Posted April 18, 2000 Not sure - I'd have to rerun the game - but For a MULTIPLAYER game this should be able to be disabled - otherwise game control is out of you hands - not good ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 If you are butchering your own men, they would surrender on their own out of self preservation. You shouldn't have control over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 18, 2000 Author Share Posted April 18, 2000 I Wasnat butcheing my men they got shot up At any rate IF I have a chance THe AI shouldnt be able to end my game for me in multiplayer match - That should be MY Decision and as an OLD CC2 Player I wont be convinced otherwise Realism wise thats a debatable point - BUT the waY i see it if mY tank or troops still have the means to inflict heavy losses and upset a total victory THERE IS NO REASON I shouldnt be able to do so- and competitively this will be a major drawback IMO ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 18, 2000 Author Share Posted April 18, 2000 Moon Just reran the turn MY morale sucked @13% BUT MY win chances were 32% and my opponents only 40% Now my prob is taht in LD I dont get reinforcements till turn ten - My morale is gonna suck regardless because we are WAY outnumbered- If the AI takes over and ends the game for ya, you dont get the chance to redeem yourself For scenario design this will be anotehr handicap - no reinforcement crucial scenarios for multiplay - also MORALE will be something you are really gonna have to watch out for - In designed scenarios Again This is something that I believe should be optionally disabled for multiplayer ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott C Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 SS_P - I disagree strongly. What this simulates is not the AI concluding that you can't win, but your soldiers getting so scared and torn up that they surrender to save their own skins. Under NO circumstances should this be disabled! Also, you are wrong that your morale will be low by turn 10 of LD - I've played it several times against people who are pretty good, and I can frequently keep my morale above 70% for the whole game. Seemingly, it's based on the amount of units you lose relative to what you started with, so if your force has been sufficiently decimated, the survivors surrender. (i.e. "Oh s***, the company's down to one platoon and a Hellcat - I'm not fighting these guys any more!") ------------------ Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 18, 2000 Author Share Posted April 18, 2000 Sorry Scott _ i still disagree - I took out two tanks and a VL in the two turns after losing two HEllCATS its simply doesnt make sense to have this in here For multi play YOU are all into realism _ im looking to play at a different level IE Ladder and this is a handicap period ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 I agree with Scott C completely I could be wrong but my interpretation of that 32% victory rating does not indicate a 32% chance to win. Hardly, it think it means you have only accomplished 32% of your victory conditions, you have only 32% of a win. I agree that this feature should not be disabled, if your moral was down to 13 % then you are correct, your men did get all shot up and the game auto surrendered because your men have NO more will to get all shot up any more! I think this is reasonable and realistic. I like that auto surrender feature..... Tell your men to keep their heads down and their Moral UP! -Tom W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 I'm gonna have to agree with SS_Panzerleader right now. If you have a chance to save a lot of your guys by sacrificing 4 of them then that's a good descision. Where do you draw the line? War was a lot of sacrifices. It's a small sacrifice for the greater good. A descision like that in an Operation could really hurt. Just my Canadian $0.03! Damn exchange rate. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 From the point of view of "realism" as opposed to "game-iness" I agree with Scott C on this one. No way your little virtual soldiers are all going to commit suicide just because you stamp your feet Otherwise you are like the black knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail who had both legs and both arms cut off - "Come back and fight you bastard, I'll bite your legs off" Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 how about looking at it this way: that auto surrender feature could be considered a mutiny or failure to follow orders. The game (AI) has dertermined that all your men are no longer taking orders any more, we have seen this when units are routed or broken, if they are all routed or broken and your moral goes below a certain critical value then yes there should be a mutiny and they should auto surrender. IMHO Something to the effect of .... "You can't flog a dead horse" comes to mind here. -Tom W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 Does your morale go up with the arrival of reinforcements? I've always been too involved in the battle by the time they arrived, so i've never noticed. If not, then SS has a point. If you're a couple of casulites away from forced surrender (by the AI) and reinforcments arrive (or you launch a successful counterattack) which turns the tide, then the AI should not intervene just because you had a few more guys killed. Your thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest major_tom Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neutral Party: From the point of view of "realism" as opposed to "game-iness" I agree with Scott C on this one. No way your little virtual soldiers are all going to commit suicide just because you stamp your feet Otherwise you are like the black knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail who had both legs and both arms cut off - "Come back and fight you bastard, I'll bite your legs off" Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "What are oyu going to do?? BLEED ON ME!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott C Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 Black Sabot - Yes, your morale does go up when reinforcements arrive. However, in the beta demo, the check for "surrender due to low global morale" occurs before the morale is updated. So, in my PBEM against Fionn, my troops surrendered the turn the Hellcats showed up (i.e. the HC's showed up on map and instantly surrendered) - yes, this was on turn 10, but it was just a flesh wound. But, due to this, the bug has been fixed. ------------------ Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanE Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader: _ i had a fighting chance to at least reduce the quality of win to a minor vict, or possibly more depending on how effectively I could deploy my tank -<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, but IMHO, this sounds to me like a made dash for a victory hex at the end of a game. You had a CHANCE to reduce the level of victory by sending your men into what they considered a hopeless situation. If the fight has gone that bad in the first 10-15 minutes, perhaps your troops simply don't believe that one tank is going to make any difference over the next 10-15 minutes. Your troops don't know how many enemy troops they are facing and if the enemy is getting reinforced. I can see where this will be a concern in Ladder competition, but I think it reflects the overall care that needs to be given to your troops. Perhaps CM will teach us all a new-found respect for the digital solider. ------------------ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 Hmmm, This brings up a another point. Does the AI consider the quality of the troops when it makes its surrender decision? IMO, a platoon of elite troops that suffered 70% casulties is far superior to a like platoon of green troops even though, man for man, they lost the same. [This message has been edited by Black Sabot (edited 04-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 32% of VL fulfilled = 68% unfulfilled. 13% positive Morale = 87% negative Morale. If a commander ordered an assault under these conditions, I would fully expect the remaining survivors to refuse to obey, and a surrender would not be out of the question. The whole auto-surrender function was put in to stop that o-so-gamey aspect of most wargames wherein you wear your units down to a bloody nub, and yet fight on to the bitter end as tho every man was Audie Murphy. Hey, it ain't gonna happen that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 It seems it is a question of player control, ie fight to the last man, versus a realistic simulation of combat, ie Hey my buddies are dead, let's get the hell out of here! Obviously we are playing a game and BTS has compromised in making it playable for gamers while still semi realistic with the global morale factor. In the game in question with SS, the US forces had one squad, four crews, and one HQ for a total of 25 effective men, all located on the US hill, plus a roaming Hellcat. The US had suffered 220 casualties. The Germans had the majority of their infantry and support intact and 3 HT's, suffering 26 casualties. The US had no hope of capturing an objective except by parking the Hellcat near one on the last turn to dispute it. Really, as the US commander what do you think you would do or want the game to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 13% morale is VERY VERY LOW. That means that you have lost basically 90% of your fighting troops, i.e. out of a platoon (3x12+4 for the HQ)that would be 4 guys standing out of 40. Sorry, but at that point the forced surrender is more than justified IMO - under any aspect (realism and gameplay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted April 18, 2000 Share Posted April 18, 2000 It seems to me that one of the basic tenets within CM is that you are not able to micromanage down to the nth degree- your troops surrendering under these circumstances being an example of this. I would rather have it this way, then in a game like West Front/East Front, where units can basically fight until there is nothing left of them. CM certainly puts more of an onus on taking care of your men- I think it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 19, 2000 Author Share Posted April 19, 2000 Quote: Sorry, but IMHO, this sounds to me like a made dash for a victory hex at the end of a game. You had a CHANCE to reduce the level of victory by sending your men into what they considered a hopeless situation. ************************************** Sorry a tank full of HE and that has taken out two enemy tanks in the previous turn doesnt constitute a mad dash for a victory hex !!!! I coulda cared less about the hexes I had enuff HE and AP TO DO MAJOR dmg without the enemy having squat to stop me - Unless i got stupid and parked *********************** QUote Black Sabot: Does your morale go up with the arrival of reinforcements? I've always been too involved in the battle by the time they arrived, so i've never noticed. If not, then SS has a point. ********************************* I just went back and reexamined the turns opn turn 9 morale was a whole 29% on turn ten the hellcats arrived morale was 39% a whole big increase of 10% cmon how the heck is that supposed to help - when they are dropped in plain view to be destroyed? The were dead at the end of the turn and morale again plummeted ********************************** quote: Scott C : Black Sabot - Yes, your morale does go up when reinforcements arrive ************************** Scott 10% is not muc h help bud taht gave me a whole minute of morale improvement - then Three turns later after I destroyed all enemy tanks I surrender? sSOrry but gaminess or not this isn't right for competitive play. I'm sure when this starts happening in ladder games there willbe more complaints about it. For individual squads in close combat situations I can see the surrender feature but for an OVERALL GAME surrender - you will not convince me that it is valid for multiplayer as anything but an option ************************************ QUOTe: major tom "What are oyu going to do?? BLEED ON ME!" *************** I hardly think taking out a stug and a tiger back to back with a tank is bleeding on my opponent - he had no armor left other than some ammunition deficient halftracks, I was on turn 13 IIRC that gave me alot of time with HE to even the score You seem to forget this is STILL a game, and on a COMPTETIVE level the surrender decision to end the game should be mine alone ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 04-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted April 19, 2000 Share Posted April 19, 2000 I would fully expect to have the AI surrender for me if at turn 13 of a 30 turn game I was down to 13% morale. If I found myself in that sorry of shape that early in a game I imagine I would surender before the computer did. "In the game in question with SS, the US forces had one squad, four crews, and one HQ for a total of 25 effective men, all located on the US hill, plus a roaming Hellcat. The US had suffered 220 casualties. The Germans had the majority of their infantry and support intact and 3 HT's, suffering 26 casualties. The US had no hope of capturing an objective except by parking the Hellcat near one on the last turn to dispute it. Really,as the US commander what do you think you would do or want the game to do? " Was that the condition of both sides at game end? Sounds like you got lucky Ron. ------------------ "Tryin to be so so bad is bad enough, don't make me laugh by talkin tough" EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 19, 2000 Author Share Posted April 19, 2000 Elvis obviously you are still sore about the last incident based on yoru snipety remark regarding "you got lucky" lol what ever man THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LUCK or anything else this had nothing to do with ron either THIS IS about a feature which I don't care for So don't insinuate anything nor try and stir up something that simply isnt there THIS HAS nothing to do with losing at all other than the fact - I could've reduced the win - and in a competitive game - which is what I and many others are interested in - a total loss vs a minor or major is a huge difference It wouldve been very unlikely I would've won - and RON PLAYED A FANTASTIC GAME, so keep your inuendos where they belong, to yourself ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 19, 2000 Share Posted April 19, 2000 One Hellcat and 25 men against, what, two platoons of German infantry and three halftracks? Uh oh... I don't think this would have gotten you anywhere, SS_Panzerleader. The Hellcat is open-top, you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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