Guest mch Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 whoops! sorry [This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 I thought it was stated before, but if not let me state it again VERY clearly... You currently are playing a 7 month old BETA, so trying to form a solid opinion about the specifics of anything in the BETA is pretty pointless. I say pointless because we have made a few thousand changes to the game since then, so to think that somehow the final will play exactly like the BETA is not a productive use of the little gray cells The pros of an Auto Surrender far outweigh the cons. Eliminating weenie play is a huge plus to any multiplayer game. I'm not saying that what happened to you was right/wrong game wise, but I can tell you that it is not unrealistic for the battle to be called a loss even if you have one or two significant units left. My point is that if you get the snot beaten out of you so badly that you are forced to surrender, you deserve to lose. That is why the feature is in there, plain and simple. BTW, I am 99% sure that the BETA had a bug in it regarding calculating reinforcements into the auto surrender equation. So if this is your major beef with it, then it is finally time to lock up this thread Oh... I see I forgot to state something clearly. The ratio that decides the surrender thing is determined by Global Morale Frindly:Enemy. Global Morale is based on the side's total unit values minus what has been KO'd. So since tanks are worth a LOT of points you will only see an Auto Surrender loss if you have lost the bulk of your forces without causing the enemy any real significant damage in return. And that is, in my book, a loss Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well part of my pointi s that If I have several tanks or any for that matter, being The AI is not a good JUDGE of my abilities with these tanks -<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hello SS! as I said in my post(1st pg.) I don't think the AI values vehicles the way we Humans do...my only evidence is all the games I've played,....but,.... I for one am convinced.Hell,look at when OB&G wrote that when he loses all armor, he surrenders!I don't think I'll EVER see the AI do that! (just trying to be helpful,not further muddy the water) As for cheating in Ladder games: I feel strongly that:IT WILL HAPPEN!!!!! it's one of the drawbacks of competition. there will be some people taking their "rating" way too seriously!the awnser IMHO is an enviroment where the sharky players are "encouraged" to lighten up a little. (hint:no one plays w/them!) ------------------ It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised. -attr.to Fredrick the Great- [This message has been edited by mch (edited 04-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 SSPL, I reread the beginning of this thread. Sorry, but you should have lost in a major way, no question about it. As others had pointed out you blew it Trying for a mad flag grab at the end of the game is *NOT* what CM is about, single or multiplayer, friendly or competitive. You would have lost in any case, even if you had grabbed all Victory Locations since casualties are more important, and it looks like you took a royal beating. I very much doubt you could have altered the score. The forces the Germans had left compared to yours were superior and, if the game had played out another 10 turns, I am sure you would have lost the Hellcat and whatever victory flags you had grabbed. Then your Global Morale would have been 3% and Victory level 10% (or something like that). Face it, you were trying to be the type of "weenie" that CM was deliberately coded up to be forced to surrender No offense, but the situation as described is *EXACTLY* why we put in the Auto Surrender. Besides the reinforcement calculation in Global Morale having a bug, I'd say that everything went just as designed. If ever there was a situation were Auto Surrender should have kicked in, you described it perfectly Oh... someone asked on Page One if unit QUALITY is factored into Global Morale. It is. The value of a unit is based on an inherent value unique to that unit modified up or down based on the Experience setting. So if you have three platoons, and two of them are absolute crap and one is great, then if you lost the two crappy ones your Global Morale might be something like 50% instead of 30%. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 Double Postitis [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 Here you go..... If you're feeling a little bored.... check out this link:http://www.s2company.com play around with relative combat power charts!NTDS!all sorts of fun stuff! (you'll need MS office gear,like EXCEL spreadsheets,n'stuff) ....determine BEFOREHAND who will win!..... (insert theremin music w/hypno wheel here) ------------------ It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised. -attr.to Fredrick the Great- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 21, 2000 Author Share Posted April 21, 2000 Steve said: Face it, you were trying to be the type of "weenie" that CM was deliberately coded up to be forced to surrender No offense, but the situation as described is *EXACTLY* why we put in the Auto Surrender. Steve I'm sorry but I was doing damage with what I had left, If i felt I didn't have any chance of doing anything I would've surrendered as I did when I played FIONN and he destroyed all my armor in CE in the matter of a few turns, This also happened with KNAust recently and I surrendered rather quickly because I felt I was in an impossible situation. This time I felt I had a chance to wreak some havoc Which was what I was doing _ I think I'm a good judge of when I can do no more and to put it out there as you did, suggests that I would do this all the time and it is simply not so If I feel beaten without hope I surrender - but from my CC2 days if I have armor I have hope I do understand why you have put it there and I still feel that as players we should have the option of going on, but its your game so I will not bring it up again unless it becomes a problem when the final is out But please don't make me look like I play unfairly or pull anything because I am NOT that kind of player; and I pride myself on being VERY honorable and that statement is VERY uncharacteristic of me as a player Thanks ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 04-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: In a multi-player game the ONLY thing that will force an end (auto-surrender) is when the ratio gets to a certain range that is overwhelmingly in favor of one side. Note, this is a RATIO, so if one side is doing piss poor and the other side is doing so-so, the game WILL NOT END on its own. It isn't like one side takes a beating and then packs it in even if the other side has also taken a beating. There is a random element in here as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is what i'm talkin' about. This is ok, as long as the game doesn't end any games when they start to get good. PL, in his first post, made it sound like the "feature" was broken or it wasn't tweaked properly (ie. it cuts off games that could still have been fun to play on). How the hell did this get into ladder games and that crap? Ladders suck and 99% of the people who play in a ladder are freakin disconnectors and dumbass whiners. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: You currently are playing a 7 month old BETA, so trying to form a solid opinion about the specifics of anything in the BETA is pretty pointless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Only solution here is to release the real demo, right? lol MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 21, 2000 Author Share Posted April 21, 2000 Kraut said: How the hell did this get into ladder games and that crap? Ladders suck and 99% of the people who play in a ladder are freakin disconnectors and dumbass whiners. Kraut evidently you had a bad experience on the ladder _ i seem to remember you from CC2 MAD KRAUT right? MK? Not everybody is like the stereotype you made - I've met alot of great people through laddergames and the type of players you describe are the minority not the majority ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 With any luck this will be my last post to this thread. Although I gave you kudos for a neat looking Hellcat move I in no way implied that what you did made it worth the game continuing. It would have annoyed me if you had been doing that to me and keeping a lost effort going...heck it may have annoyed YOU if someone was doing that weenie stuff to you. As far as ladder games go I have 2 quick comments that may help you understand what other people have been saying. 1) As I said before I haven't played any ladders before but I would think the idea is to accuratley display either someones ability or status compared to others on the board. Running around to squeak out a couple more points to increase you ladder score seems to not honorably reflect the level of your defeat. When beaten so bad that the AI calls it quits for you the honorable thing would be to grant your opponant his just due. 2) Check me if I'm wrong but if you had been able to run around for a while and kill some more Germans before your Hellcat was blowed up and ended with a global morale of 3% instead and your opponants morale had gone down in the same proportion as yours would it not have effected your ladder score the same as when the AI would have killed the game? OK maybe they weren't quick points. ------------------ "Tryin to be so so bad is bad enough, don't make me laugh by talkin tough" EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 21, 2000 Author Share Posted April 21, 2000 Actually Elvis that is assuming my Hellcat would be blown up _ and from where I was sitting Ithink it woulda been tough - that left em also the option of unloading my HE and retreating my Hellcat from the map had this feature not been implemented But its a moot point because it is And with regards to you idea that I would be upset if someone did that to me - to the contrary If someone has armor I hardly expect them to throw inthe towel - to me that is foolish ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 21, 2000 Share Posted April 21, 2000 SSPL, you are missing the point. You might think that one tank driving around, alone, on the battlefield is somehow akin to a second chance. It is not. Even if you didn't lose it to a PF you STILL would have lost the game fair and square. The conditions for an Auto Surrender are strict enough that there is no hope of overcoming, even a little, the conditions that made it happen. You do realize that your one Hellcat could only hold at most one Victory Location, right? If the enemy had any infantry even near it you wouldn't have even been able to hold that one. And because CASUALTIES are the big factor you couldn't possibly have won even if you took and held a VL. Nope, running around with one Hellcat, even if you managed to shoot up a bunch more stuff, would NOT have changed the outcome of the game. Sorry, but CM was designed to do exactly that. Bottom line is that SSPL was tryng to do the "make up for 25 turns of bad playing/luck by 5 turns of unrealistic behavior" that so much pisses the vast majority of people off. One Hellcat does not an army make You were beaten, and beaten badly by the looks of it. Could you have done some more damage? Perhaps. But what the heck is the point? You most certainly, absolutely, lost the game. Taking out those last three HTs would not have changed that, I am absolutely sure of it. All the attacker would have to do is just split them up and run them around the map to keep them away from you. And that is annoying as all Hell. I will say this again, very clearly... You had lost the battle, period. Running around with one tank, with no fear of the consequences and absolutely no hope of changing the out come is EXACTLY what why we made the Auto Surrender feature. It is gamey, pointless, and utterly annoying for the other player to have to sit through. So there will absolutely be no "annoying mode" option for competitive play People are just going to have to get used to the fact that losing means losing. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 22, 2000 Author Share Posted April 22, 2000 Steve Ok Np, I quit arguing the change of the feature a while back after you posted and I realized it wouldnt change. I respect your opinion, and I love this game. I found something I'm not used to and in cc2 A tank meant a chance So this is CM and I won't have that chance like it or not. So I will simply adjust my play to accomodate this. I in no way was trying to upset you and wasn't attacking CM, was only lobbying for an option I only posted again after your last post because I'm not a gamey player - I 'm very honorable and hate people that pull crap. I honestly felt I could do something, but you have pointed out some things and being that you know the scoring intracies better than I, I will accept that I could not do anything But for claritys sake I wasn't just intentionally running around and doing nothing I had a plan and I had no intention of trying to hold victs with the tank< I was hoping I had enough He shells to keep my remaining men alive and somehow push the Germs back out of at least part of the village That is all. In doing so I had hoped that I could reduce the victory level - but I take your word for it that I could'nt have done this, so at this point I will drop it I do appreciate you taking the time to hear my gripes tho without shutting down the thread ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username: Is it just me or does SSPnzyLdr have a knack for starting threads that get long in the tooth? Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lewis, for once, I agree with you. I think it's because he whines and bitches about things and then he thinks his **** doesn't stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 I think you may be close to getting the point SS. How many times on this board have we read this: "With Combat Mission you will have to relearn the way you play wars games." ie..one tank left does not always mean the fight is still worth fighting. ------------------ "Tryin to be so so bad is bad enough, don't make me laugh by talkin tough" EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 22, 2000 Author Share Posted April 22, 2000 OB@G Once again I applaud your colorful use of metaphors and your astounding command of the English Language BRAVO *golf clap* Elvis yep - I'm gonna take what Steve said and just change my style of play realizing taht I will have to move my last minute tactics up some turns ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 OK, you cry and complain about stuff and being as stubborn you are, you never get the point of what others are trying to tell you. Then you nit-pick on the way they try to tell you the same thing OVER, and OVER, and OVER again. This whole debate could've been ended on the first page if you would have just LISTENED to what people have been trying to tell you. Even Steve said you're missing the point. The whole idea of "you must unlearn, what you have learned" concerning wargames has never hit home as much as it has on this whole topic. One measely TD is not gonna turn the tide or change the point spread enough against a bunch of infantry. I'm sorry, it just isn't. You may cry that this is unrealistic, but Steve is right, this is VERY realistic and that the AUTO-SURRENDER was made to prevent this "weenie-type of play". So just hush and listen instead of running your mouth, "But I still had this and this." And so what! You got your bequester kicked, so DEAL with it! ------------------ "Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." --Jedi Master Yoda [This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 22, 2000 Author Share Posted April 22, 2000 OB&G Man you make me laugh you just don't know when to quit being your normal obnoxious self do you ? You can sit here and be as rude as you want but you know what? I couldnt give a rats ass what you think - Your opinon means absolutly, less than nothing - In fact YOU mean, absolutely less than nothing - so crawl back from whatever rock you slid out from under and quit breathing my air I hope you keep up you obnoxiuos antagonistic behavior to everybody; and we'll watch who has the last laugh - I'm not the only one who notices how rude and nasty you are So you can bait me and flame me all ya want I won't flame ya cause you aren't worth the effort - I know kids with a better attitude than you get a life man ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 04-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Is it just me, or does OB&G get overly angry at PL for seemingly minor disagreements? I mean, yes, the thread did go very long but we all had a very nice clarifying of the way CM in this one area works in the process. Is that so bad? I've seen a lot less worthwhile threads than this one. So let's just all relax and stick to the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tom w Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Ok How about this... LETS keep it Simple SSPL and OB&G's pick sides in the most equitable demo scenario there is (I'm not sure which one is the most balanced) then they can take out their frustrations and flaming on the battlefield. I can't believe this thread is still on going... (really, I mean we are only actually PLAY testing beta demo software lets not all get bent out of shape about it) Steve... (and Charles and BTS) Thanks so much of the GREAT game (we are all pre-release buyers, I hope, I know I am) and thanks for putting up with all the flaming bitching, whinning and pedantic comments. SSPL would you like to share with the Thread your most recent PBEM experience with the CE Scenario? Why don't we just keep the flaming to the cyber battlefield and get back to play those great demo scenario's... Thanks again Steve -Tom W <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader: OB&G Man you make me laugh you just don't know when to quit being your normal obnoxious self do you ? You can sit here and be as rude as you want but you know what? I couldnt give a rats ass what you think - Your opinon means absolutly, less than nothing - In fact YOU mean, absolutely less than nothing - so crawl back from whatever rock you slid out from under and quit breathing my air I hope you keep up you obnoxiuos antagonistic behavior to everybody; and we'll watch who has the last laugh - I'm not the only one who notices how rude and nasty you are So you can bait me and flame me all ya want I won't flame ya cause you aren't worth the effort - I know kids with a better attitude than you get a life man <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader: OB&G Man you make me laugh you just don't know when to quit being your normal obnoxious self do you ? You can sit here and be as rude as you want but you know what? I couldnt give a rats ass what you think - Your opinon means absolutly, less than nothing - In fact YOU mean, absolutely less than nothing - so crawl back from whatever rock you slid out from under and quit breathing my air I hope you keep up you obnoxiuos antagonistic behavior to everybody; and we'll watch who has the last laugh - I'm not the only one who notices how rude and nasty you are So you can bait me and flame me all ya want I won't flame ya cause you aren't worth the effort - I know kids with a better attitude than you get a life man <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is the prime example of what I'm talking about. You're not paying attention to the ideas and points, instead you just keep saying, "you make me laugh" Well, I hope you get a real chuckle outta this, but I believe your maturity (or lack there of) is shining through here more than mine. Who else has noticed my behavior? Huh? I just can't stand someone who cries over spilt milk and then blames the parent for getting on to them about it. It's like "Gee I got my ass kicked and I don't like the way the computer threw in the towel, now I'm going to complain to the CM community about this travesty." COM'ON DUDE! YOU GET A LIFE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 Yeah, knock it off both of you. Yes, it took SSPL a tad longer to understand the basic situation than it should have (this being the LONGEST THREAD EVER is proof enough ), but he did in fact get it. Although this should have been resolved on one page, it wasn't, so hopefully the next time it will be And SSPL, I never got upset by this discussion. Frustrated that it was still going on when I thought I (and others) were being so clear, but communication is NOT perfect, so whatever Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 22, 2000 Author Share Posted April 22, 2000 OB@G Say what ya want I'm tired of your childish banter - take a hike man you arent worth the effort is taking to type this ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 22, 2000 Share Posted April 22, 2000 And it is with great pleasure that I close up this thread We didn't hit 200, but that doesn't mean someone should TRY it Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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