Choice of Units (Fionn's rule of 75s?)

[Claymore]

I can't seem to dig it up from the SEARCH engine.

What was Fionn's rule of 75s (?) for the fair choice of units.

Please respond ASAP so I can make my setups.

Thanks and cheers

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Claymore:

I can't seem to dig it up from the SEARCH engine.

What was Fionn's rule of 75s (?) for the fair choice of units.

Please respond ASAP so I can make my setups.

Thanks and cheers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC it was nothing bigger then a 7.5cm Ie, PzKpfw IV, Hetzer Stug III/IV, Jadgpanzer IV, etc vs nothing larger then a 75mm on the Allied side, Ie an M4 Sherman would work.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Wolfe]

Here's my list of what the Short-75 rule is:

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="2"><TR><TH COLSPAN="2"><BIG><BIG>Short-75 Rule</BIG></BIG></TH></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="009900"><BIG>American</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>M5A1 Stuart</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4 Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A2 (French)</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7A1 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M8 HMC</TD><TD>75/381</TD></TR><TR><TD>M24 Chaffee</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w+</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gu n</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w+</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+ Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2 Jumbo</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2(76) Jumbo</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M26 Pershing</TD><TD>90/854</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>T26E4 Super Pershing</TD><TD>90/976</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M10 TD</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M18 Hellcat</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36B1 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="AA0000"><BIG>British</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>Stuart V</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman II</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman III</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman V</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Badger (Canadian)</TD><TD>--</TD></TR><TR><TD>Centaur IV</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell IV</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VI</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VI</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill AVRE</TD><TD>290/48</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIA</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman VC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Challenger</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Comet</TD><TD>76/792</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wolverine</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Achilles</TD><TD>76/884 </TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Archer</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sexton</TD><TD>88/610</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="999999"><BIG>German</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>H39 Hotchkiss</TD><TD>37/705</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lynx (Pz IIL)</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVH</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVJ</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wespe</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder II</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ostwind</TD><TD>37/820</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wirbelwind</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hummel</TD><TD>150/460</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder III late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42 late</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>Tiger</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>Tiger late</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger Porsche</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherA</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG late</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV skirt</TD><TD>75/790</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nashorn</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>PanzerIV/70(V)</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdTiger</TD> <TD>128/920</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanther</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>Flammpanzer</TD><TD>--</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hetzer 38t</TD><TD>75/790</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE>

The Short-75 rule is an attempt to allow PBEM opponents to limit armor purchases to medium tanks, rather than have every single PBEM battle turn into an engagement between highly armored super tanks carrying 88 and 90mm guns. This list spells out specifically what is meant by 'Short-75'. You can add to or subtract from this list as you (and your opponent) see fit. Please understand that this "rule" isn't really a rule at all, it's just an agreement between opposing players to limit their armor purchases in quick battles to try to get away from playing the umpteenth King Tiger vs. Pershing battle.

Anti-tank guns are not excluded from this list because, although deadly to tanks, they are highly vulnerable to shelling and infantry attack. Tank destroyers (though thinly armored) were excluded because of their large amount of AP rounds, their mobility, and their relative invulnerability to infantry. You can certainly add these tanks back in if you want, but the German player may be especially vulnerable to the fast tank destroyers (Hellcat and Jackson in particular) which are not only fast vehicles, but also have very fast turrets.

The reasoning behind including some tanks with larger caliber weapons such as the 95, 105, and 150mm guns is they do not fire AP rounds, and carry a very limited number of hollow core © shells with which to kill enemy tanks. They're mostly just infantry killers and are themselves very susceptible to AP rounds. But feel free to exclude them if you wish.

[edit: fixing the table]

You know, that's one Hell of a lot of work for what is just a simple rule of thumb.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Wolfe]

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="2"><TR><TH COLSPAN="2"><BIG><BIG>Panther-76 Rule</BIG></BIG></TH></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="009900"><BIG>American</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>M5A1 Stuart</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4 Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w+</TD><TD >76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A2 (French)</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w+ </TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+ Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7A1 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M8 HMC</TD><TD>75/381</TD></TR><TR><TD>M10 TD</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M18 Hellcat</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M24 Chaffee</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2 Jumbo</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2(76) Jumbo</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M26 Pershing</TD><TD>90/854</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>T26E4 Super Pershing</TD><TD>90/976</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36B1 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="AA0000"><BIG>British</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>Stuart V</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman II</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIA</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman III</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman V</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman VC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Badger (Canadian)</TD><TD>--</TD></TR><TR><TD>Centaur IV</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell IV</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VI</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Challenger</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VI</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Comet</TD><TD>76/792</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wolverine</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>Achilles</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Archer</TD><TD>76/884 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Sexton</TD><TD>88/610</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill AVRE</TD><TD>290/48</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>none</TD><TD>--</TD><TD>--</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="999999"><BIG>German</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>H39 Hotchkiss</TD><TD>37/705</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lynx (Pz IIL)</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVH</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVJ</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherA</TD><TD>75/925</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG</TD><TD>75/925</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG late</TD><TD>75/925</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wespe</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder II</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ostwind</TD><TD>37/820</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wirbelwind</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hummel</TD><TD>150/460</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV skirt</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Flammpanzer</TD><TD>--</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hetzer 38t</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder III late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42 late</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>Tiger</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Tiger late</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger Porsche</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nashorn</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>PanzerIV/70(V)</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdTiger</TD> <TD>128/920</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanther</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE>

The Panther-76 rule is an adaptation of the Short-75 rule but allows the use of the German Panther tanks and the allied tanks that carry 76mm guns. It still excludes the heavies (King Tiger and Pershings), but gives a wider range of armor choices.

Because the Tiger's armor is somewhat vulnerable to the 76mm gun's AP shot, you may want to allow the German player to have this tank. However, starting with version 1.05, BTS has changed the frontal turret armor of the Tiger. Thickness varies across the turret front with some parts being as much as 200mm thick.

The PanzerIV/70(V) (an up-armored JagdPanzer IV) is not automatically included as it's upper frontal armor is not vulnerable to 76/793 AP, even with its lower (90%) armor quality rating. However, it *can* be penetrated by the 17pdr (76/884) gun using AP shot. The German player may be allowed to select this tank if facing British, Canadian, or Polish forces, all of whom have access to the 17pdr gun (the American and French forces don't have the 17 pdr).

Despite all the so-called "rules" and limitations listed here, it's still up to PBEM opponents to choose what type of battle they wish to play. These guidelines can be either helpful or just irritating. Whatever rules you choose to go by, just be sure your opponents agrees with them. Communication is key to safe and happy PBEMing.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Wolfe]

[snip]

Just for future reference: *NEVER* put carriage returns in the middle of an HTML table (i.e. between the commands) that you want to post to a UBB board.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe:

The PanzerIV/70(V) (an up-armored JagdPanzer IV) is not automatically included as it's upper frontal armor is not vulnerable to 76/793 AP, even with its lower (90%) armor quality rating.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lower armor rateing? the Panther only has an 85% rateing as does the M4 Sherman the PzKpfw IV J has a 95% rateing.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lower armor rateing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I mean is it's lower than 100%. Yes, I know there are other tanks that have lower armor quality ratings, but the JagdPanzer IV's lower armor quality allows the 76/793 AP shell to penetrate; if it were 100% armor quality, it would be real close; leaning towards not penetrating (according to the charts I have for CM). PzIV/70(V)'s armor is also 90% quality, but the armor is still thick enough to stop the shell from this gun in CM. This is what I was referring to. Sorry, I should have clarified.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Vanir]

Damn Wolfe! Now that's a reply!

I understand these rules are ment to be guidelines only, and as such probably work quite well. Nevertheless, a few comments.

The 75 rule will not allow an American player to follow historical American armored doctrine of using tanks to engage infantry and hard points and tank destroyers against tanks. Nor will it allow a British player to follow the British practice of pairing one Firefly with 3 Sherman 75s. For those people for whom that stuff is important, of course.

Also, it could be debated if basing the cutoff on gun calibre is not a little too arbitrary. For example, the Panther's 75 actually has better penetration than the Tiger's 88, and is a better all around tank, which is reflected in the purchasing prices. The Nashhorn has a very nice gun, but its' thin armor is vulnerable to any allied tank.

------------------

No, there will be no sequels. Charles and Steve have given up wargame design in disgust and have gone off to Jamaica to invest their new-found wealth in the drug trade. -Michael emrys

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

The 75 rule will not allow an American player to follow historical American armored doctrine ... Nor will it allow a British player to follow the British practice ... For those people for whom that stuff is important, of course.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To those people the 75 rule serves no pupose anyway, since they'd never do what that rule is supposed to stop in the first place.

BTW, the Priest is an excellent tank destroyer. I played an armour heavy battle where I had two M7 and a whole range of tanks.

It was only the Priests that scored on enemy armour, taking out two Hetzers (Crack) and one King Tiger (also Crack). The enemy also had a StuGIII, but it was taken out by my infantry close assault.

I lost no AFVs at all in that battle.

Cheers

Olle

How about this rule:

No tanks for the defender.

TDs, assault guns, SP arty and towed guns are allright to use though.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The 75 rule will not allow an American player to follow historical American armored doctrine of using tanks to engage infantry and hard points and tank destroyers against tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. The Short-75 and Panther-76 are only concerned with game play balance. They allow you to choose 'lesser' tanks without worrying as much about what uber-armor your opponent might go with.

Historical accuracy regarding doctrine as well as weapon scarcity are even more complicated problems to try to PBEM with.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>BTW, the Priest is an excellent tank destroyer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the reason I like the Churchill VIII. It's 95mm gun really destroys infantry and in a pinch, its handful of hollow core charges can eliminate the occasional enemy AFV. I think that it's one of the better Panther killers because it has a low muzzle velocity, which gives the round more arc, reducing the angle on the Panther's frontal armor, unlike a high velocity round whose trajectory is much flatter.

- Chris

[Reaper]

Wolfe (and/or Fionn),

Any objection to my copying that chart and putting it on my web site. I have been getting a lot of people I know into CM, and I think that would make a nice reference for the less historically inclined when playing QBs. I don't mind the occasional armor slug fest, but its nice to take the workhorse tanks every now and then!

Reaper

[kunzler]

I am just wondering how many people would accept either of the 75 or 76 rules when playing the allied side? (those that don't enjoy being the underdogs that is)

The Germans have at least equal armor and better guns in both cases. Granted, the allies may get more tanks for the money, but a couple of Panthers can be death to take out with just 76 guns. It is interesting that the rule was promulgated by someone (Fionn) who has a stated preference for playing the axis side. (Sure, I can say that now that Fionn is banned - I did post my E-mail though)

The 76 rule isn't too bad if you choose the British with the Fireflies, but I would probably want to include Sherman Jumboes and Jacksons in the mix for the U.S. Try Jumbo76es against Panthers on a firing range sometime. From my tests, it was pretty close, with the Panthers maybe even coming out ahead. Equal points of E8s and Panthers I have not tried yet, but I am betting the E8s get slaughtered.

As for the 75 rule, I think I would want to see some TDs in the mix. Otherwise, I would choose Germans every time.

Just putting my $.02 in before these become the defacto standards for QBs.

[Graaf Spee]

I think that most people seem to be obsessed with the bigger guns and stronger front armour on the german tanks. But look at the gyrostabliser (sp?) and the fast turrets on the allied tanks. If you choose to play with the 75-rule I think that its the allies who have the upper hand. If you use them correctly that is.

/Kristian

ps Hofbauer, I LOVE your signature!

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Any objection to my copying that chart and putting it on my web site.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn requested a copy and said he might stick it on CMHQ, so you'd have to ask him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>a couple of Panthers can be death to take out with just 76 guns. ... The 76 rule isn't too bad if you choose the British with the Fireflies, but I would probably want to include Sherman Jumboes and Jacksons in the mix for the U.S.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but the 76 guns (particularly TDs) typically have tungsten rounds, which are murderous to German armor. The trick is getting them to use the damn rounds!

And certainly Jacksons would make for a more even match tank vs. tank, but as you mentioned, price does play a role. 3+ Jacksons for 2 Panthers. Though for the Germans to be outnumbered wouldn't be too far off the mark!

You may have just been more lucky than me at Panthers vs. Jumbos. A Panther killing a Jumbo is given a 'Rare' chance of frontal penetration, even at 100m. And I don't recall the last time I saw it happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is interesting that the rule was promulgated by someone (Fionn) who has a stated preference for playing the axis side. (Sure, I can say that now that Fionn is banned - I did post my E-mail though)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, it's all a conspiracy by Germano-philes!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Equal points of E8s and Panthers I have not tried yet, but I am betting the E8s get slaughtered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I don't think there's much difference (atleast as far as CM is concerned) between the Sherman-76 and Easy-8.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for the 75 rule, I think I would want to see some TDs in the mix. Otherwise, I would choose Germans every time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Graaf Spee pointed out, the faster Allied turret speed definitely plays a role here. But of course, you can select whatever units you want to play with. It's between you and your opponent. If you tell them you'd rather play without any restrictions on forces, I'm sure most folks will be more than happy to oblige.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just putting my $.02 in before these become the defacto standards for QBs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I *hope* that these rules of thumb don't become some sort of unavoidable "standard" for QBs. It's just a different way of playing the game to throw in some variety; it isn't something that BTS is coding into the game. I honestly doubt you'll have much trouble finding folks who will be happy to PBEM without any of the restrictions listed, if that's what you prefer. I'm open to most anything myself. I don't even have much of a preference for sides.

- Chris

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Graaf Spee:

I think that most people seem to be obsessed with the bigger guns and stronger front armour on the german tanks. But look at the gyrostabliser (sp?) and the fast turrets on the allied tanks. If you choose to play with the 75-rule I think that its the allies who have the upper hand. If you use them correctly that is.

/Kristian

ps Hofbauer, I LOVE your signature!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh don't even mention that cursed overmodeled gyro stabilizer . Well if they ever correct the turret traverse on the Panther you'll have a 1 - 2 sec advantage if you play someone who uses them.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-13-2000).]

[Cueball]

Wouldn't it be easier to agree before-hand to not allow any individual unit (platoons and companies are composed on several small units) whose cost at "regular" experience level exceed 200?

If I'm playing Axis, let my opponent take a Jackson. It's just as dangerous to my PZIV as an M10. Firefly? PZIV can take it out too. If Allies want to take a Jumbo, they're stuck with the more common 75 variety. It's a tough kill but so is a Tiger I. It seems to balance out pretty well.

If you do that, people will find that a Sherman 75 or a PZIV is just fine without the super heavies roaming about.

[kunzler]

It seems I did Fionn's rule of 75 somewhat of an injustice with my last post. yes, Fionn did contact me. His comments were to the effect that he does play allies and has had some stellar victories using these rules. It is nice to see that he is still part of the CM community. Hopefully some day he will be able to post here again.

Anyway, after reading the comments in his E-mail, I did some more firing range tests. I first took a flat map at 2000 yards and placed units on both ends and started them towards the other side using the hunt command. I also did this with a 500 yard firing range.

I tried to use four similarly priced units at the upper ends of the two rules, the 75 rule and the 76 rule.

For instance, I used Panthers and half Easy 8s and Half Easy 8W+s to get the points equal. For the 75 rule I used PZIVHs and 1/2 Sherman M4s and 1/2 Sherman M4E3s.

In each case, the German tanks dominated up until around the 500 yard range. After that, the U.S. tanks began to have the upper hand, and at 300 yards seemed to clearly have the upper hand.

This echoed one of Fionn's comments to me, that a skillful commander can get in close and then dominate with the quick turrets and fast allied tanks. I noticed that the allied tanks reported a slightly higher chance of hitting at close range also, at least for the 76 rule, possibly due to the Panther's larger size.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In each case, the German tanks dominated up until around the 500 yard range. After that, the U.S. tanks began to have the upper hand, and at 300 yards seemed to clearly have the upper hand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well. I did a bit of my own with Easy-8's vs. Panthers. Even though the LOS tool shows E8's have an "OK" chance of killing the Panther out to atleast 1000m, the only way it seems to kill these beasts with the 76 are if you get a hit on the lower hull. The upper hull and turret are essentially invulnerable to the 76 down to about 300m. At 300m, some rounds get through the turret armor (but others don't). Never did get through the upper hull even at 300m.

Shermans also still show a great reluctance to use Tungsten rounds. Seems like if the chance of penetrating is OK or better, it won't use the Tungsten at all, even after multiple ricochets.

So maybe those Jacksons *are* important after all. Didn't test to see if the TDs will opt to use the Tungsten more readily than regular Sherman 76's, though.

- Chris

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Didn't test to see if the TDs will opt to use the Tungsten more readily than regular Sherman 76's, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just tested. Nope. At 800m Hellcats reported the hull down (dug-in) Panthers as 'OK' kills. 3 of the 4 Hellkitties bounced 10~20 rounds each off the Panther's frontal armor (turret and upper hull only) without penetrating (a few gun hits) before the Panther crews abandoned their tanks. The 4th Panther hung in through all 31 AP rounds from the Hellcat. Only after it had completely burned through all its AP shot did the Hellcat use its Tungsten rounds to finally kill the Panther. Seems the 'OK' kill message means don't *ever* use your Tungsten rounds. The Hellcats had 4 Tung rounds each, BTW.

- Chris

[Wolfe]

*bump* on the use of Tungsten rounds.

- Chris

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe:

The upper hull and turret are essentially invulnerable to the 76 down to about 300m. At 300m, some rounds get through the turret armor (but others don't). Never did get through the upper hull even at 300m.

- Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had the oposite experience concerning Panthers as Sherman 76mm in my games regurly kill Panther frontaly at 500 - 750ms with front turret penetrations using APCBC.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have had the oposite experience concerning Panthers as Sherman 76mm in my games regurly kill Panther frontaly at 500 - 750ms with front turret penetrations using APCBC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using CM 1.05 I tried a 16 tank shooting gallery (8 on each side; Panthers were hull down (dug-in)). At 500m, the AP shell did actually get through. But barely. The *vast* majority of shots were ricochets. And half the kills were from hits at weak point. Tungsten rounds were never used.

Did the same at 800m. 105 ricochets, no AP penetrations at all. 5 abandoned after their guns were hit. 2 died from Tungsten. 1 abandoned after the AI surrendered on turn 7. It took 4 turns and more than 20 AP shells before one of the Easy 8's used it's Tungsten (this tank had 7 AP left when it decided to switch to Tung). The other that used Tungsten burned through its *entire* allotment of AP (31 rounds) before it started using Tungsten on turn 5. These were Elite tanks and didn't miss much. Thankfully the Panthers had no ammo and weren't shooting back.

I also tried seeing how far out CM would give an 'OK' message for a Sherman 76 Easy 8 armed only with AP trying to kill a hull down Panther. It's 920m. Unfortunately, the 76 doesn't seem to have a prayer of actually killing the tank at that distance using only AP. So I don't understand why it's shown as having an 'OK' chance of killing the Panther. IMHO, it should be either Rare or None. If you give the Easy 8 back its Tungsten rounds, the 'OK' kill message extends out much further (over 2000m).

BTW, the reason I put the Panthers hull down is because of the weaker lower hull armor (60@55). The 76's AP *can* readily penetrate this plate. But I'm still curious as to why CM would classify the kill odds as 'OK' on a hull down Panther when there's no real chance of actually doing it.

I do believe there's something wrong here.

- Chris

[Malmvig]

BTW - I read Fionn's Open Terrain After Action Report at combathq. His roster included:

3 Pz II Lynxs

2 x SS Motorised Panzergrenadier Platoons

Sperrbrecher Element:

4 x Elite King Tigers.

Manoeuvre Element:

3 x Veteran Panther G (late)

Infantry and AT gun Suppression Element.

4 x Crack SS Motorised Panzergrenadier Platoons.

12 x Regular StuH42s

Artillery Element for the support of the Manoeuvre and Infantry Suppression Elements:

3 x Veteran 150mm FOs

6 x Regular 81mm FOs

Does anyone have a glue how many points that roster ended up with? Didn't bother to calculate myselfe. Whatever it is I can't make it fit into 3000p. Is it a 5000p? Combined, Armoured or what?

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Malmvig

I'am not leaving either

[Vanir]

Malmvig:

I added them up and came out with a total of 6062 pts (this could be off slightly) divided up as follows:

Infantry: 1138

Armor: 3835

Arty: 1089

The battle I'm sure was created in the scenario editor, and was not a QB (you can tell because the map is square instead of the very rectangular maps you get in large QBs). AFAIK there are no catagory spending limits in the scenario purchase screen which is why he was able to spend a huge number of points on armor (he would have been limited to 1800 armor points out of 6000 total in a combined arms QB).

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No, there will be no sequels. Charles and Steve have given up wargame design in disgust and have gone off to Jamaica to invest their new-found wealth in the drug trade. -Michael emrys

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

I am using statistic to look at various aspects of the game, and the tungsten issue is coming up,

While I do not have enough data yet to measure with confidence, I am getting a handle on the statistical average of certain events of if certain factors correlate. Right now I have seen a reluctance to use tungsten in standard American tanks related to what I call the "dumb tank" syndrome. American Mediums will, even on hunt, sometimes just quit doing anything when faced with heavy enemies, going "dumb". Also, they will sometimes burn through their entire ammunition supply before switching to tungsten (if they have any).

This may be because of how the tank defaults to its battlesight rounds. American Mediums routinely carried AP as a battlesight round unless ordered to carry something else. Often, when faced with infantry, they would just shoot the AP first and reload with HE rather than switching shells. M4 seemed to never waste a tungsten, they only carried as a battlesight round when they were expecting trouble. Perhaps this reluctance to load tungsten is rather high, and when faced with German heavies they know the AP battlesight round can cause no effect so it goes dumb as the crew either reloads, panics, or just plain stalls.

Tank destroyers seem to do this much less. They carried tungsten as a battlesight more often (leading to some shootings of Lynx type tanks with this valuable round, somthing I think I saw in the game with an M18 and a Lynx.