Halftrack--only a team?

[Guest jaja]

US halftracks can only carry a team now. Doesn't this mean that a whole bunch of scenarios are screwed up now due to the fact that many mechanized units are now part foot? Also, US halftracks should be able to carry a squad!

[Guest Madmatt]

Ahhh young one, you need to read closer. Not all half-tracks are thus limited. Just the M3A1 which has the special MG mount in the passenger compartment. There is not room for 12 guys in there with that extra MG mount and ammo storage.

The M3 can still carry a full squad.

Madmatt

[Formerly Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

There is not room for 12 guys in there with that extra MG mount and ammo storage.

Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would disagree with that. The ammo would be stored on the floor between the seats and would not be a hindrance. The .50 pulpit is over the cab, and again would not be a hindrance.

I have a not-very-clear photo of an M3A1 with .50 cal, .30 cal, and water-cooled .30 cal all on the same vehicle. There are nine passengers visible. I'll keep my eye out for a better pic.

------------------

I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Ahhh young one, you need to read closer. Not all half-tracks are thus limited. Just the M3A1 which has the special MG mount in the passenger compartment. There is not room for 12 guys in there with that extra MG mount and ammo storage.

The M3 can still carry a full squad.

Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The readme also says the M5A1 can't carry a squad. The problem is, if you're the brits, that's the only halftrack you have (M5A1 that is). You do still have a Kangaroo though, so all is not that bad.

------------------

Jeff Abbott

[Formerly Babra]

I'm sure they're relying on some sort of documentary evidence for this decision, so I'm not gonna bitch about it. But it does seem strange. The M3A1 compartment is a hell of a lot roomier than the Ram Roo, and the Roo is known for certain to have carried a complement of ten.

[This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 11-30-2000).]

[von Lucke]

Kinda wondering where this one came from myself...

[Guest Big Time Software]

First of all, that pic above is an incomplete vehicle. The insides are missing and even some of the superstructure is missing. Not a good example to use

I just checked out real M2A1 (same as the M3A1 and M5A1 for this discussion) in person just 5 days ago while having this issue in mind (I was the one that found the problem ). I also have an overhead picture of an M3A1. So this is our documentary evidence...

I can assure you folks that only a half squad (team) can fit into the "command" type HTs. First of all... what the picture above does not show is the seats. The MxA1 HTs only had 6 seats on back. That right there is a pretty good indication that it was not designed for a full squad The theories about moving around ammo fall flat because the storage bins were there as standard equpment and were most likely welded to the frame. So there was NO option to move stuff around. Plus, the gunner stood right about where two guys would normally sit, so even if the bins were ripped out there would be a space problem.

The MxA1 HTs were designed for the platoon HQs, which consisted of about 4 men or so. The job of the HQ when mounted was to direct the .50 to cover the advance/retreat of the other "normal" Mx HTs (M2, M3, or M5). Therefore, they were never intended to provide room for more than 6 guys.

Pretty much end of story on this

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 11-30-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The readme also says the M5A1 can't carry a squad. The problem is, if you're the brits, that's the only halftrack you have (M5A1 that is). You do still have a Kangaroo though, so all is not that bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Brits weren't very big on HTs. To the best of my knowledge they never made/fielded their own models. The Americans were gung-ho about them, at first, but notice that they stopped producing HTs during the end of 1944 and never produced one again so far as I know. Why? Well... I suspect for the same reason people bitch about losing their HTs to small arms fire. They really weren't that good in practice vs. the production effort I guess.

Steve

[Rob Deans]

I haven't got the patch yet, but am I led to believe that Commonwealth HTs can't carry a full section anymore?

Thanks

Rob Deans

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Jeff:

The Brits weren't very big on HTs. To the best of my knowledge they never made/fielded their own models.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct Steve. Mostly, they used trucks to get to the front, then Kangaroos while at the front IIRC. I have no problem losing the MxA1 for squad transport so long as something exists. That something being the M3 for the US and roo for the brits. It's just that extra MG was nice, if you know what I mean

------------------

Jeff Abbott

[Kingfish]

Question: Why is it that you can fit a 12 man squad in a M3 HT, yet can't fit 3 Zook teams of 6 men total?

------------------

Frag Hanoi Jane

[Spook]

I dunno, Steve----some of what you're citing here on the "British" halftracks (M5/M9 series) seems to run counter to what was asserted in the Designer Notes (Vehicle Listings, Sect. H) of the ASL Manual. I won't hold up that reference as absolute gospel, but I do know that "Bob M", the primary researcher, always listed the total production runs of each vehicle type when he could. I'm not inclined to believe that he fabricated the existence of a stock (non-pulpit) M5/M9 halftrack.

I'll check back on this tonite.

Anyway, Babra, What I THINK that you are seeing in your referenced picture is what was labeled in the ASL list as a M3(MMG) halftrack or a M3(HMG), the latter being described in the ASL notes as serving in heavy weapons platoons of armored infantry battalions. These tracks had three mounted MG's. So some of the nine men MIGHT have been the MG crews, and ASL further relates that it was POSSIBLE to remove the two rearward MG's for ground setup.

Anyway, the ASL notes also list a TO&E for a late-war US armored infantry platoon as a side note, where one M3(MMG) track was assigned to each platoon. I'll try to post on this here later also. (Unless someone beats me to it.... )

[dalem]

ASL TO&E late-war U.S. Armored Infantry Platoon:

1 x M3A1 HT w/ platoon cmdr, half-squad (really the HQ guys) & Bazooka

3 x M3 HT with a squad apiece

1 x M3 HT with a half-squad & M2 60mm light mortar (the half-squad is just the mortar team)

1 x M3 HT towing a 57mm ATG

As mentioned by Spook, ASL also notes that the armored infantry company's heavy weapons platoon had a few M3 "MMG" HTs (and the M4/M21 81mm mortar carriers), which I assume would get parcelled out (the "MMG" HTs anyway) to the platoons as necessary.

I'm very curious as to the actual use of the "MMG" HTs. An M3 with 2 air-cooled .30s and one water-cooled, or the heavy version with 2 x water-cooled .30s and 1 x .50 would be fantastic to be able to use in any of the game systems I fool with (ASL, Spearhead, or hopefully CM if they get put in someday), but I'm really unsure of their actual doctrine, or existance. Does anyone have any information I could digest?

-dale

[Splinty]

I've ridden in an actual M3A1 (my battalion used one for parades)and they are rather cramped with six people standing up in the back without all the combat gear and ammo a normal team carries. That's without any MG's mounted and all their ammo,so I can imagine how tightly packed they with a crew and a fully combat loaded infantry team jammed inside.

------------------

Nicht Schiessen!!

[Formerly Babra]

I realize the pic is an incomplete vehicle. It is indeed a MG version (note the three pintle mounts on the rear compartment wall) and probably would carry NO passengers, being a support halftrack. I put it up for passenger-space comparison purposes with Ram Roo above only. The only thing missing of consequence is the bulkhead wall between the passenger and driving compartments.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I just checked out real M2A1 (same as the M3A1 and M5A1 for this discussion)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is it the same for this discussion? The M2 halftrack series is a shorter vehicle than the M3 series. It has, as you point out, six seats (seven actually) in the rear compartment, while the M3 sports ten. The M2 series also has very large stowage compartments which separate the driving and passenger compartments -- the M3 does not have these and is consequently much roomier. (Check out Zaloga's M3 Infantry Half-Track 1940-73 for good comparative pics).

If the MG operators on the M3A1 are assumed to be inherent vehicle crew rather than passengers, then I will (happily) concede that a dozen men could not share the same space with them, but I'm not so certain this was the case.

Comfort is not on the table here. We're not talking about ergonomically designed 21st century toys. The M2/M3 halftracks were stop-gap constructions, built mostly with available civilian components to keep costs down and deliveries high. The question isn't "would twelve men be happy in there"; the question is, "Would twelve men fit?"

[Marco Bergman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

I also have an overhead picture of an M3A1. So this is our documentary evidence...

I can assure you folks that only a half squad (team) can fit into the "command" type HTs. First of all... what the picture above does not show is the seats. The MxA1 HTs only had 6 seats on back. That right there is a pretty good indication that it was not designed for a full squad <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is interesting. It didn't seem quite right to me, so I did a search through my library. I found one 5-view painting which clearly shows the above configuration of 6 seats.(Tanks of WWII, Chris Ellis, Octopus)

It is listed in the text as a HQ company vehicle, and the vehicle has HQ-23 on the bumpers. There appears to be a radio behind the driver. Confusingly, the text right next to the picture says: "...a personnel carrier with seats for 10 men (a rifle squad) in the rear and room for 3 in the cab."

However, I also found 6 different written references to the troop capacity of the M3A1 being 10+3; I found a 4-view painting which shows pulpit MG plus 10 seats in rear.

( Tanks & Fighting Vehicles, by Chris Foss, Salamander)

This painting is an excellent match for my Hasegawa M3A1, by the way...

From Airfix Magazine v12 #11 July 1971:

American Half Tracks (part 2)

by Peter Chamberlain

"Half track Personnel Carrier M5A1

This vehicle corresponded to the Half Track Personnel Carrier M3A1, with seats for 13. It had a M49 ring mount and three fixed pintle sockets"

and in the description for the M3A2:

"Crews ranged from 5 to 12 men, depending on the amount of stowage carried and the tactical purpose intended."

Although the second quote is not for the correct model, it highlights what all of the reference books seem to imply; that command, ammo carrying, MG etc versions had quite different interior stowage.( one book stated that the MG carrier lost 2 seats to ammo storage space.)

I hate to assume all those references are just wrong, so it would seem to me that the normal troop carrying M3A1 did actually carry 10+3 men, while the command version(with radio) carried 6+3. Unless the game differentiates between these two, it's a toss up which way you take it.

After all, with 12,499 M3s compared to 2,862 M3A1s, it may well be legitimate to assume that all A1s in the game will represent command variants.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Sheesh... you would think this would be easier to figure out, but I guess not

Formerly Babar:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The question isn't "would twelve men be happy in there"; the question is, "Would twelve men fit?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is the main question. Along with "what was the actual use in practice?" The space thing is what I have the most problems with. See below...

Marco:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, I also found 6 different written references to the troop capacity of the M3A1 being 10+3; I found a 4-view painting which shows pulpit MG plus 10 seats in rear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand how this is possible. The pulpit clearly exends backwards into the crew compartment. The gunner MUST stand in the crew space or where the assistant driver sits. So if there is a crew of 3, where are they all positioned? And if, as it looks, the gunner must stand where at least 2 troop seats are located, where do the displaced 2 passengers sit? The inside of the M3/5 HTs are cramped enough even without the problem of the pulpit MG, so I don't know how it is possible for the A1s to have the SAME capacity as non-A1 model.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> that command, ammo carrying, MG etc versions had quite different interior stowage.( one book stated that the MG carrier lost 2 seats to ammo storage space.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I understand as well. So 2 lost for the ammo/radio, 2 lost for the gunner position. Total remaining seats... 6.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I hate to assume all those references are just wrong, so it would seem to me that the normal troop carrying M3A1 did actually carry 10+3 men, while the command version(with radio) carried 6+3.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I have no idea how it is that a cramped vehicle, with no MGs of any type, can hold the same number of men when outfitted with the side mounted .30cal and the pulpit style .50 cal. It just doesn't make sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>After all, with 12,499 M3s compared to 2,862 M3A1s, it may well be legitimate to assume that all A1s in the game will represent command variants.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regardless of the rest of this discussion, this is in fact what our A1s were designed to be. So the correction we just put into the game is factually and conceptually correct. The only room for debate is if there was some other form of the A1 that could allow the full 10 to be loaded. But I have no idea how that could be possible.

Steve

[Formerly Babra]

Before I retire from a happy career of boat-rocking and sycophant bashing, lemme just throw a couple of numbers out there:

The interior diameter of a Ram's turret ring is 60 inches (5 feet). A little geometry tells me the the area of the passenger compartment opening in the Ram Kangaroo is just under twenty square feet, about two square feet per man for a ten man section. Cozy, but well-documented. No pushing, gents, standing room only. No doubt some fond attachments were made.

By comparison, the passenger compartment of the M3A1 has a length just under ten feet, and a width close to seven feet. Let's err on the side of caution call it about 60 square feet. Let's subtract about ten square feet for ma deuce in her holy pulpit, which impinges only slightly on the passenger compartment. The .30s are pintle mounted on the hull sides and don't meaningfully subtract from the total, but let's hack off another ten square feet for them anyway. We've still got about forty square feet left, double that of the Ram Roo, which is known certainly to have carried a ten man section (some sources say eleven) including a bloody Bren gun.

So could a dozen men fit? I'd say certainly: Four on a side and four on the floor -- it could be done.

If the M3A1's intended use was a command vehicle, that's one thing, but it seems like its capabilities are being artificially restricted to force us to use it that way.

[Rother]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra:

So could a dozen men fit? I'd say certainly: Four on a side and four on the floor -- it could be done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds reasonable enough, but you're not going to get four sitting on the floor. Maybe five on a side, two crew standing at the guns, squad leader and asl up front with the driver, and all the extra gear on the floor in the back. I might have missed somebody. I think you overestimated the width inside. I could be wrong though.

Rother

[Guest Big Time Software]

I have no idea what the RAM math is, or should be, but I was under the impression that the vehicle was rather overcramped. And that because of this the guys had to generally ride in it standing up, then duck down when shot at. This was easier to do because guys could hold onto the chest high "turret ring", while in a HT there was no such luxury for hanging on.

As for your math concerning the M3A1... look at the picture you posted again. You did not subtract out the side storage bins. I have been in one of these things and let me tell you... the guys sitting across from each other practically bang kneecaps. There is no room for sitting on the floor. Not unless you are talking about simulating a Clown Car (where they fit in as many clowns as possible before the car bursts at the seams ).

In any case, I very much doubt they would cram that many men into the vehicle except for dire emergencies. The US Jeep, for example, could probably hold 5 men or maybe even six. But regulations were that no more than 3 were to be transported in a Jeep. So whatever theoretical number of clows, er I mean grunts , you could fit in a M3A1 is irrelevant.

Also note that simply computing square feet per man is not a good way to find out the real capacity of a vehicle. You really need to figure out how many man sized spots their are, which is not the same thing.

Steve

[Guest KwazyDog]

"If the M3A1's intended use was a command vehicle, that's one thing, but it seems like its capabilities are being artificially restricted to force us to use it that way."

This is possably true babra, but the questions is is that a bad thing?

For instance, in reality I think every half track in the game could probably carry another half squad to a squad unprotected if you had guys standing on the side railings and sitting on the hood (probably I could see another dozen men fitting in and on there all standing), but of course this is unrealistic, so thus isnt modelled.

I honestly think its more important for a wargame to model what *would* have been done, not what *maybe* could have.

I see the real question thus is, were these half tracks commonly used in the manner? Hehe, dont look at me for the answer, just posing the question

[bfamily33]

Hmmm.

Recount? Perhaps the Justices could take a few mintues tomorrow to resolve this?

[Formerly Babra]

Now I see what the hang-up is. It's those seats and the assumption that they are being used as such. I've just done some browsing through assorted halftrack pics. All the training pics show nicely organized men on their comfy little seats facing inboard. However, all the pics from NW Europe show the passengers standing, facing outboard, and when (rarely) seated, seated on the ammo bins, presumably with their feet on the seats.

"But that's not safe from enemy fire" you say, and you're right. But in contact those men are going to dismount pronto. I rode M113s in a combat zone and never, ever did we sit inside where it was "safe". We stayed as far away from the floor (and the nearest mine) as we could, and hit the ground running when the enemy was near.

But anyway. Since it's only one halftrack in five, I can live with it.

[Guest jaja]

Madmatt,

I read that all halftracks could only carry a team, and don't call me young one! I'm almost 15 full years old.

Everyone,

See my new transportation topic.

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Not unless you are talking about simulating a Clown Car (where they fit in as many clowns as possible before the car bursts at the seams ).

Hey, transportation off campus is kind of limited. I'm no clown, but we did fit 10 people in a Dodge Neon over the weekend, without even having to use the trunk. (Shotgun! ) I think I would have preferred an M3A1 halftrack, no matter how much room the ammo boxes took up.

In any case, I very much doubt they would cram that many men into the vehicle except for dire emergencies. The US Jeep, for example, could probably hold 5 men or maybe even six. But regulations were that no more than 3 were to be transported in a Jeep.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read somewhere that 7 men in a jeep was the emergency number. I guess 2 in front, 3 in back, and 1 on each running board, '20s gangster style.

------------------

No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. -Ender's Game