Victory bug with pillbox/bunker

[Mother Theresa]

In a recent QB we noticed a strange accurance with a machine gun bunker. After using all of it's ammo (to the demise of many allied soldiers) the 'crew' of the bunker abandon the bunker. Understandble, considering they were out of ammo. The problem with it lies in the victory points awarded the allies for 'knocking out' the bunker, at the end of the battle.

So I set up a little experiment with 3 mg bunkers and several companies of allied inf. for them to shoot at (cruel...yes.) until they ran out of ammo. Sure enough when they did they abandoned and the result were points for the allies, to the point of winning the battle at the cease fire. Now it may be my twisted mind working, but letting a machinegun shoot all of it's ammo at you is not the same as knocking it out. Or my normal troops and mg's and guns and everything would be awarding a lot more points to the opposition, considering running out of ammo happens all the time.

Can this be modified? or am I forced to 'hide' the bunker and ambush 3 feet in front of it in order to keep it from firing the last few rounds, which would ultimately destroy the bunker.

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Sticks and stones will break my bones and so would a 90lb carrot.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I would like to see the maximum ammo for MG pillboxes increased beyond 250. I don't know how much ammo was historically stored in one of those things, but I don't think they would have run out in a 30 minute battle. Perhaps their ammo should run LOW instead of running out completely. That way they can continue to fire occasionally and don't abandon their positions. I made an Omaha beach scenario in which the Americans easily advance once the pillboxes run out of ammo.

[OGSF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Perhaps their ammo should run LOW instead of running out completely. That way they can continue to fire occasionally and don't abandon their positions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My first reaction was "yes, that would work"...but then I thought a bit more about what "low ammo" represents in CM (as I understand it at least). Basicaly a squad is low on ammo because it has run out and is scrounging from dead and wounded. In the case of a MG bunker, those same resources would not likely apply for MG rounds.

Also, if I was in a MG bunker, (and managed not to just run away), I would be shooting at the hordes approaching until my ammo ran out, then I'd run away. If the enemy has enough soldiers to advance in human waves, then they will eventually overwhelm the bunker. If the soldiers are coming, you shoot at them. You don't stop just to save ammo, and let them reach you. If you run out of ammo, you run away and the enemy has "knocked out" the bunker.

As for running out in a 30 minute battle, the MG42 had a very high rate of fire. If there are things to shoot at, it will eventually run out of ammo.

Actually the rare times I have had this happen to me, I have been more than happy with the litter of enemy bodies out in front of the MG post. I have been much more frustrated positioning a bunker and then having the main attack come in somewhere else out of LOS. :^)

OberGruppenStompinFuhrer

[Pvt. Ryan]

OGSF, you are right about what LOW ammo means in CM, but maybe a pillbox would conserve ammo as its supply ran low, and this could be modeled with the LOW ammo designation. And yes, the MG42 had a voracious appetite for ammo, but wouldn't a pillbox have a pretty good supply? A heavy MG42 has 95 points of ammo and a pillbox has 3 MG42s with 250 points combined. Three MG42 teams have more ammo than a pillbox. Like I said, I don't know how much ammo a pillbox had historically, but I don't think they would go through all the trouble to construct one only to have it overrun because it ran out of ammo after 30 minutes. A pillbox shouldn't have unlimited ammo, but if the LOW ammo isn't appropriate, maybe the max ammo should be increased to 500 or somefink.

Also, a tank in CM never runs out of MG ammo (as far as I know). I think a pillbox would have a much greater supply of MG ammo than a tank would.

[This message has been edited by Pvt. Ryan (edited 12-13-2000).]

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Also, a tank in CM never runs out of MG ammo (as far as I know). I think a pillbox would have a much greater supply of MG ammo than a tank would.

[This message has been edited by Pvt. Ryan (edited 12-13-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I can't believe that's right. On an AFV's 'detail' screen, isn't the MG ammo carried shown in parentheses, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it go to zero. Anyone? I know I've had MMG Carriers, ACs and Scout Cars go to 0 MG ammo and not fire any more.

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Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties,

Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices!

But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli,

All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother!

We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more,

We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues

[Pvt. Ryan]

Seanachai, you are right. I never even noticed that MG ammo was indicated in the detail screen for AFVs. [whine]But I still want more bullets for my pillboxes!!![/whine]

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

And yes, the MG42 had a voracious appetite for ammo, but wouldn't a pillbox have a pretty good supply?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think it depends on the scenario. For a prepared defense, you might hve a point. But a retreat into some partially prepared defences but incomplete, or maybe formerly stripped defensive positions (thinking of parts of the West Wall) might not have large caches of supplies. So bunkers might have been built, but perhaps not stocked so a defender would have to scrounge guns and ammo from the unit or whatever could be rushed up to the front.

The defense may be hastily manned and prepared. I think that in game terms the only time you should see very high levels of ammo in bunkers would be in assault scenarios.

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mother Theresa:

Now it may be my twisted mind working, but letting a machinegun shoot all of it's ammo at you is not the same as knocking it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in my twisted mind, this works out. that happened a lot at d-day i've heard. a guy in a pillbox could shoot off all his ammo and he would have to retreat.

victory to the allies, whose job is to get and stay on the beach. defeat to the germs who are screwed now that the allies have a toehold, nevermind how many casualties they suffered

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Mother Theresa]

victory to the allies, whose job is to get and stay on the beach. defeat to the germs who are screwed now that the allies have a toehold, nevermind how many casualties they suffered

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

..... the MG42 had a voracious appetite for ammo, but wouldn't a pillbox have a pretty good supply? A heavy MG42 has 95 points of ammo and a pillbox has 3 MG42s with 250 points combined. Three MG42 teams have more ammo than a pillbox. Like I said, I don't know how much ammo a pillbox had historically, but I don't think they would go through all the trouble to construct one only to have it overrun because it ran out of ammo after 30 minutes. A pillbox shouldn't have unlimited ammo, but if the LOW ammo isn't appropriate, maybe the max ammo should be increased to 500 or somefink.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if I totally agree with your maths there Ryan.

A pillbox has 250 "bursts" from the three MGs that I presume are FIRED AT THE SAME TIME.

A HMG42 team gets 95 "bursts" - and a HMG team is carrying so much ammo that the team can't run (I have the right don't I ? - hasn't it been argued that its the weight of ammo thats the problem isn't it ?).

So by my somewhat shaky maths (its late and the lab chemicals are getting to me) a pillbox has a bit over seven and a half times as much ammunition to use as a HMG team.

If we assume three or four guys carry the ammo for the HMG team it would mean we would be looking (to move the ammo stockpiled in a pillbox) at enough ammo to fully laden about 25 to 30 individual guys such that they can't run anywhere.

I am thinking a pillbox has a TRUCKLOAD of ammo in it !

[This message has been edited by Degrees of Frost (edited 12-13-2000).]

[jshandorf]

Bump

[Doug Beman]

Mom T, are these battles ending with the side manning the bunkers surrendering/retreating? If so, then any bunkers would be destroyed by the victors after the battle.

If, during a battle, one side's bunkers use up all their ammo and then that side leaves the battlefield, the victors destroy the bunkers. If a bazooka/mortar/whatever team uses its ammo and then leaves the battlefield (isn't captured/rendered combat ineffective) then that team has NOT been destroyed. It can re-equip and fight again.

DjB

[Thermopylae]

SPOILER

In the pegasus bridge scenario (which takes place at day for some reason?) I've seen the MG bunker use up three ammo per shot....

Yet despite complete destrcution of anythign allied looking, they were awarded VPs for a knocked out bunker.

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mother Theresa:

In a recent QB we noticed a strange accurance with a machine gun bunker. After using all of it's ammo (to the demise of many allied soldiers) the 'crew' of the bunker abandon the bunker.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was this with 1.05 or 1.1? I agree that it is a problem. Reason is that you may have reinforcements coming and if you can hang around in your pillbox long enough and occupy the enemy long enough, you stand a chance of staying alive AND keeping your pillbox. Especially if the enemy does not know you're out of ammo. They (the enemy) could spend 3-5 turns before figuring that out. That's 3-5 turns they're not attacking something more crucial. That's 3-5 turns of allowing your forces to regroup and perhaps counter attack. That's 3-5 turns of the enemy advancing cautiously instead of at will.

And besides, if I knew my buddies were nearby, it might actually be safer in the pillbox/bunker than outside it. We are talking self preservation eh?

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Jeff Abbott

[Pvt. Ryan]

Thermopylae, you pointed out what I also noticed: MG pillboxes use up ammo at a rate three times higher than a MG team because there are three MGs in the pillbox. I have seen the ammo count reduced by three for each burst, although I don't know if that is always the rate of fire in CM.

How many boxes of ammo can a Heavy MG42 team carry? My guess is two boxes per man, excluding the guy carrying the gun. So that's 10 boxes of ammo per team. I would think that a pillbox large enough to accomodate three MG42s could hold more than 30 boxes of ammo. All of this is based on assumption and not on fact. I play CM for fun and don't analyze every aspect of the game; however, I don't think a pillbox should run out of ammo in a 30 minute engagement, unless of course that was what happened historically.

The point of this thread was that pillboxes become abandoned and count as destroyed by the enemy when they run out of ammo. Either the enemy shouldn't get those victory points or the pillboxes should get more ammo so that they don't abandon so early. Either way, it doesn't seem right the way it is.

[Subvet]

I'm with "Mother Theresa" on this one. I think the MG bunkers/pillboxes should go to "LOW" like any other machinegun does.

I was playing QB where I ran into the same problem. The MG pillbox was never knocked out. It did run out of ammo and the crew bailed out though. The opposing force never got close to the pillbox and in the end the attackers surrendered. Yet they got credit for knocking out my pillbox. Seems pretty odd to me that they get credit for that. All my force would have to do is load back up with more ammo and that pillbox would be as good as new. No other crew weapon is considered knocked out when it runs out of ammo. Would BTS care to comment on this one?

[russellmz]

But counting a pillbox as 'destroyed' for points, when it is 200m behind the 'lines' of figting and you are retreating off the map or in the case where we first noticed it.

[M Hofbauer]

bump and I agree wit M/T's and Pvt.R's reasoning.

If the bunker is safe behind own lines when the enemy side is surrendering then indeed the bunker who has simply run out of ammo clearly should not be counted as a kill for the enemy.

just my truckload of turkish lira.

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"Im off to NZ police collage" (GAZ_NZ)

[Mother Theresa]

Bump this...

Can we get a BTS comment on this one??

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Sticks and stones will break my bones and so would a 90lb carrot.

[Mother Theresa]

Bump again, i would really like a response on this.