Grognerd_Fogman Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 As a former US submariner, I just wanted to express my heart-felt prayers for the crew of the downed Russian sub "Kursk". I cannot imagine a more terrifying experience aboard a submarine than what they must be feeling (or felt) during this ordeal. No power, freezing temps, little oxygen, possibly no back-up lights and the realization that others have most likely perished. Either in the initial explosion or complications after. I feel a certain kinship to these sailors and am sincerely hoping that some can be rescued. Am lighting a candle at this time for prayer. Please hold on Comrades... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Well said , sailor-----ditto...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Forgive my idiocy...but is this a recent event or one which happent in recent history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Commissar, it's happening right now as we read/type. Just watch the news, it is covered everywhere. Latest news here was that reportedly the russian navy staff has agreed to use british help and that a british rescue sub has been airlifted into the theatre. Let's hope that the crew can be saved - their situation must be horrible indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: Commissar, it's happening right now as we read/type. Just watch the news, it is covered everywhere. Latest news here was that reportedly the russian navy staff has agreed to use british help and that a british rescue sub has been airlifted into the theatre. Let's hope that the crew can be saved - their situation must be horrible indeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I heard about it this morning. We should be open to the possibility that some members in this formum will hear about this news here first as many of us have not turned on the tv or the radio since the CM arrived at our doorsteps. I would be very grateful to keep up with the latest news here in this forum if anyone else would care to post the latest developments. thanks -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoSheds Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 This is from the MSNBC Web Site: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The Kursk crew, after an unexplained accident, were forced to turn off power and let their 500-foot long craft sink to the sea bed during a military exercise. Officials have said the damage may have been caused by a collision or an explosion on board, but have been reluctant to give firm theories. The Kursk, which normally carries 107 crew, was loaded with 116 for its fatal voyage. One NATO official told NBC News that that there may have been high-level Russian officers on board the submarine in a VIP capacity to observe the scheduled exercises. The sub reportedly suffered what appeared to be extensive damage: the submarine's periscope was up, but its navigation room was damaged, a railing was dented and the protective cover of two missile tubes on the vessel's right side was missing. Water also appeared to be leaking into the vessel, according to Navy officials. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by TwoSheds (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 It's funny (in a morbid kind of a way) to hear how the Russian government handled the situation. First it was a malfunction on Monday, then it was a collision on Sunday, then it was an explosion on Saturday. The situation seems to be that they haven't got a scooby what's going on. If anyone's still alive down there, I pity them. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 O Hear Us When We Cry To Thee For Those In Peril On The Sea! Joe [This message has been edited by Joe Shaw (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 It's an Oscar class SSGN from what I can see. Probable torpedo detonation in the tubes ( the Brits lose a sub due to that in the 60s and the US lost one in the late 70s to the same cause IIRC). Seems like 116 or 117 men on board ( mostly conscript sailors with a few long-term officers)... Obviously a sizable number would have perished during the initial explosion, flooding and sealing of watertight doors trapping them in the flooding front sectors. I guess their worst piece of luck is being in an Oscar class submarine since the Russians aren't going to want to let any "rescue" sub from the UK or US near one of their Oscar class subs. If it was something old or a diesel boat then there'd be more chance. The weather up there doesn't seem to allow a viable Soviet resuce attempt and you can understand them not wanting to lose the secrets of their anechoic coating compositions to US and UK rescue teams etc. Long and short of it is that those 100+ guys are either already dead or soon to be dead and there's very, very little hope of any Soviet effort reaching them in time so unless the Russians decide to risk letting the UK and US get officers close to the sub there's nothing more to be done. Ps. That British submersible has only gotten permission to stage into Norway. From there it'd have to go to Murmansk and then be choppered out to the "rescue fleet". That'll take a long time. Too long probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Wow...this is serious! I do love US news programs - who cares about silly things like sunken submarines when we can run more "Survivor" stories! I hope they have it on in the evening news, so I can find out more details about this tragedy. ------------------ ...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Personally I don't care about the politics in all this I'm thinking about the poor sods in that uboat. If they don't survive I certainly hopes their wifes and kids will be taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Fionn, I am not familiar with modern type subs. Here they mentioned in one news report that it was a Typhoon class sub. However, given the usual ignorance of journalists that may or may not be true; I tend to believe the later. They didn't mention any missiles on board so I figured it was probably an attack sub. But then they talked about the dimensions of the thing and then I figured it would have to be a missile carrying strategic sub. I then looked it up on the web and indeed Fionn is right it's a late Oscar version: click on the picture to get to the info page on that sub class. The Kursk itself was built 1995, it says. I am however puzzled that there is no news coverage on that in american news? It has been the main story in all news broadcasts since the weekend. I usually don't care for everyday stuff and I know it is O/T but I really feel for these poor guys. Sorry again if anyone feels this doesn't fit here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If they don't survive I certainly hopes their wifes and kids will be taken care of.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is Russia we're talking about here, the crewmen themselves probably hadn't been paid for months. As for American news, it's all over the news. CNN at least has been covering it extensively and Larry King has had two or three interviews with admirals on the subject. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I've been following the story pretty closely, and things are looking grim. First, russian submersibles cannot get a good lock on the airlock. American DSRVs may not be able to get a lock either, due to different hatch configuration. In either case, they are designed to operate with sub listing up to 55 degrees. Kursk is apparently listing at 60 degrees. The automatic evacuation system on Kursk malfunctioned, and the compartment from which manual free ascent can be conducted may be flooded. Also, since the sail was damaged in the explosion/collision, much of the command staff may be dead (as much as a quarter of the crew may have been there at the time). Those guys need praying for, because at this point they need a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: I am however puzzled that there is no news coverage on that in american news? It has been the main story in all news broadcasts since the weekend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's all over the news here in the US and has been for quite some time. I'm not sure why people are saying it's not getting any coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 The politics may be irrelevant compared to the lives of these guys, but unfortunately the politicians are putting the final nails in their coffin, if they're not already dead. Unfortunately politics does have serious implications in situations like this. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I have found this story quite gripping. Better to go all at once than wait for the slow but inevitable. I can only imagine what those guys are going through. I hope they can get them out. There have not been signs of life recently (the crew tapping Morse code on the hull). The seas may just be too rough to hear them. There are large air bubbles rising to the surface, which is not a good sign. 350 feet (just over 100m) is not all that terribly deep, and the sub can be raise with giant inflatable pontoons, but not in time for the crew. They have 48 hours worth of oxygen left, as far as we know. ABC says it was an Oscar II. The Russians have said it was unarmed, but it is designed to carry 24 nuclear cruise missiles, and it's hard to believe it would travel unarmed. One theory is that it hit a WWII mine. The photos reportedly do show damage to the torpedo tube area in the bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Yes, it's a late Oscar class, SSGNs stowed BEHIND the sail thus giving it a VERY different appearance from the Typhoons. Looks a little like a Delta III or IV and thus one of the news agencies on this side of the Atlantic initially mis-IDed it as a Delta. Made me perk right up thinking the Soviets had lost a boomer. In any case its just an Oscar SSGN. A very tough boat, double pressure hull construction, designed to take hits and still be able to deliver its payload. I'd imagine it's prime target in wartime would have been US carrier groups. It certainly has enough SSM to do some damage. Yes, I used to be very much into keeping up with Soviet and Western weaponry.. I've let it slip over the past 2 years since getting involved with CM but the Oscar's an easy one to spot. BTW Markus, that baby is armed with some serious long-range ship to ship weaponry and, I believe, that it was SOP for at least some of those missiles to be nuke birds so unless they've gone to an all-conventional loadout given the "end" of the Cold War I wouldn't be entirely convinced that there are no nukes at all on board. Mark IV, It doesn't carry all nukes. It's an anti-shipping sub really thus it'd be more likely to have 20 normals and 4 nukes than 24 nukes ( I could check the exact ratio if anyone's interested.). About the only time I could see it carrying 24 nukes is if they wanted to do something very sneaky like put it on the continental shelf and launch a strike 5 minutes from Washington while the President slept . An attempt to decapitate the US forces during a first-strike you see? Interesting tidbit. Normal crew for the Kursk is 107. Crew during this exercise was 116. The other 9 were probably mostly sightseers ( a couple there to oversee the exercise of course would be low ranks but it is a fair bet that at least a couple were high-ranking) . Now, the guessing game is going to begin when Western intelligence services begin to start probing around for exactly who the supernumeries were. |David and others, Unfortunately this is a WARvessel. 116 lives are expendable in order to keep certain things secret. I'd be amazed if UK and US authorities are allowed to assist with the evacuation, especially at this stage when the few crew who survived the initial blast and flooding are probably now dead or , at least, will be by the time US and UK units could intervene. It seems clear that the Russians decided to try to save whoever they could BUT also decided that they'd rather let everyone die than let the US and UK gain any intel from this accident. I'd have to say that all the hoping in the world isn't going to do them any good. It'll either require a major change of heart on the part of the Russian leadership or a miracle for anyone to get out of that sub alive. I don't see either happening. So, next question... Will they raise it and recommission it? I'd say yes since, after all, the Thresher was raised, renamed and put back into service and the Russians have always been even more sanguine than the West about such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grognerd_Fogman Posted August 16, 2000 Author Share Posted August 16, 2000 An you are right Fionn, the primary reason the Oscar class was brought into being was to counter US carrier groups. It may have not been carrying any nukes on board at this time due to the fact it was an exercise but I sincerely believe that in normal ops it would carry mostly conventional weaponry along with a small percentage of tactical guided nuclear missiles. The candle is still lit... [This message has been edited by Grognerd_Fogman (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I'm glad to find this thread. I came here this morning to post one identical to it and found it had already been done. Let's hope this has a happy ending. There are too many submarines from all nations on "Eternal Patrol". Zamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 yeah, I pity any poor bastards in the Russian armed forces. Being commander by those psychos who are getting busy with Russian Mafia topless dancers instead of getting their boats in running order. Too busy commiting atrocities in Chechny. Yeah, If I was single I think I might sell everything I owned and buy a ticket for Turkey. Go help out those Freedom Fighters in the mountains. Amazing how the western media does not give a crap at all about genocide. They only covered the war for 3 weeks and then got bored covering it. At least here in the USA. How is the media coverage of the Chechny war in other countries. I love the net cuz I can learn about this myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes, it's a late Oscar class, SSGNs stowed BEHIND the sail thus giving it a VERY different appearance from the Typhoons<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Oscars have the Missiles stowed either side of the sail? ------------------ Wow, I've had the **** hit the fan before, but never like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I'm confused about one thing -- I thought those subs had enough oxygen for months. Was the system damaged? Were they carrying less because it was a limited deployment? Also, the Russians are saying that the reactor is turned off. How could they go to sea without it? I imagine the auxilary diesel is insuficient for all but emergency use. I'm afraid there are going to be many survivors, if any. I read in today's paper that the rescue craft can only hold 20 men so even if they hook up they would have to do it 5 more times to get everyone off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Somebody beat me to posting this. Oh well. I sincerly hope those trapped on the ocean floor are able to be reunited with their families at the end of this fiasco but it doesnt look good most are probably all dead by now, they said the rescue dive bell could bring twenty men up at a time? I doubt there is that many left. OT: Did anybody else question how exactly this happened? At first it was said there was a collission. Now all American and Russian units did not report collission, and since its possible but not plausible that it would be covered up maybe somethin else struck the submarine? It is maintained that the submarine wasnt carrying any nuclear weapons. Now its in the Oscar class... hence it is carrying anti surface weaponry. Follow me here... is it possible some kind of setup was put into effect that those two missile housing tubs that were found open were maybe empty? Perhaps they were taken in a botched hijacking? Maybe there was help from the inside? Call me paranoid but maybe the sub was sunk accidentally? Maybe it was just suppossed to be forced to the bottom for a small period of time while the hijackers stole the two missile systems. Or maybe it was meant to be sunk and kill any witness'? Yes it is a bit farfetched but maybe the russians have discovered a threat and that is why they arent openly in negotations with the NATO countries for help. They want to make sure a theft would be kept secret before letting the world know? Think about it you could do massive damage to a surface group if it was isolated. Imagine one of your Yankie aircraft carriers out during excersis... without any anti missile support from like and Arleigh Burke or Ticonderoga? You could have a severly damaged or even destroyed carrier. Now if a terrorist organization got a hold of those things would they hesitate to use them? Again this is just speculation. Sorry it just kinda occurred to me that it would be possible using maritime units with mini subs. I just hope those poor sailors make it, time is running out. Friday is the day they run out of air isnt it? [This message has been edited by Der Unbekannte Jäger (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 When the power plant is running, they have oxygen for months. But it isn't running. It shut down about the same time as the accident. It might be damaged or the engine compartement might be flooded, I don't know. Poor guys. Sten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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