Why people like playing wargames or watching war movies??

[bighead]

Everybody well almost everyboady knows wars are terrible, but people like playing war games, watching war movies??

[windstarz]

It's fun and a challenge. Nobody gets killed. Most who play wargames know war is hell and usually aren't warmongers.

[patboivin]

That one is hard to answer. It also involves some navel-gazing!

I think it's because it's fascinating, in a hypnotic kind of way. We live, then we die and we don't know where it leads. It's like being put on a conveyer belt with rotary saws at the end, with no means of escape.

People don't want to think about this, so they fill their lives with preoccupations, they play games with each other (read Games People Play in the self-help section of your local bookstore), they do what their parents scripted them to do (scripts people live, same section), and when they have nothing to do they CREATE problems. Sometimes they brew up trouble just for the sake of brewing up trouble, because they don't want to see their real situation in life.

Other people get drunk, become addicted to cigarettes, you name it somebody must have done it at one time or another. Life is really sad sometimes.

When there is so much mayhem and destruction as in war it has a hypnotic effect, in a strange kind of way. Why do people care about history so much? Why are they willing to die to ensure a culture or an institution will continue after they are gone? It's like abdicating your life in order to let something else continue for you, at least you know you are leaving something behind after you're gone.

Also life is there only once, as far as I know, so when something REALLY IMPORTANT to you doesn't happen, you do everything you can to MAKE it happen. That's where violence comes from, because what is important to me may not be important to you. To insist is violence.

OK some people think you live again or your life repeats itself like variations on a theme, but still the parts of us that think, feel and our body don't live on so most people act as if they are NOT going to continue after they die. They may say they do, but often they tied themselves up with some institution or other (usually religion, but sometimes it's a historical ideal about a utopia in the future if only everyone gives up their will and does what the national leaders tell them to do).

Also because people don't want to think about this topic they push it back, they bury it with problems and daily preoccupations. When they are on their deathbeds it resurfaces, however. By that time for many people it's too late, I suspect, they did a lot of things they regret and they can't undo them.

If there aren't enough resources for both of us, and we both want our "side" (our children, neighbours, you name it) to live comfortably, then we will fight until we win. This holds true for land, water, food, quality of life... Land is the most common cause, I think, because water and food depend on how much land you have.

Religion is a problem because it sells itself as something that is greater than we are. So you see a lot of people willing to give up their lives to make it continue, when they should be living their own lives in the present instead of destroying it for some abstract institution. It's magnetic though, it's awfully hard to shake off. (this is my opinion, don't start flaming me just because you think I am some sort of heretic)

The problem with tying oneself to institutions is that they NEVER last forever. Who cares about the Emperor of Rome? Many of them are laughing stocks, now. Many of those SS who died because they believed the Fatherland was going to be a utopia for their families and friends -- that backfired, for good reason. Who cares if you are a millionaire and built this huge business empire? The Babylonians and Phoenicians did that, does anybody care now? Do you even know who they are? You can build huge monuments so people will remember you. But now people don't know what some monuments are for, we don't have a clue. So that isn't a good solution either. There is no way out.

In my opinion the answer is to live your life according to principles, those never change.

Personally, for example, someone dumped me in high school and twenty years later I'm still not over it because I know she was the one. I vowed when I fell in love with her to support her no matter what so I live my own life, because it's what she wants. I feel like a widower now most of the time, esp. when there is a pause in my life, when I have time to reflect on my life. She has her life, I have mine, and they are separate. It's not easy but letting her live her life is the choice I made, and for me it's the right thing to do.

Imagine if this was over something vital like food, my family, innocent children, my best friends being threatened, everything I hold dear and believe in being put on the chopping block. People grab their weapons and fight when that happens.

I played ASL because I like puzzles (it's like playing chess) but also because this whole business of life and death is a real mystery for me. Also it's fun for a day to see my friends squirm, or to be beaten by a good opponent. It takes my mind off other things, it distracts me for a while, I like to think I am stretching my mental muscles, that it helps me grow as a person. It also helps build friendships. I don't confuse playing military games with the real thing, in real war people die and you can never undo the damage.

Also most wars nowadays are more about economics and technology, they are not military. World Trade Organisation, software encryption restrictions, the Internet, etc. When things really come to a head military operations today are more get in, do specific things, get out as soon as you can and deny you ever did anything. The age of the tank is pretty much over, except against countries that don't have the resources to buy high-tech equipment. And they lost before they started anyway. In many cases we never hear about those countries on TV because they don't have any resources our countries are interested in. e.g. Before the British went into Sierra Leone it was chaos, and then within a couple of weeks the Brits completely changed things. Reason: They have modern equipment and proper training, the rebels did not. The UN troops were not given the mandate or equipment to fight against the rebels, so they couldn't hold their own until the British appeared on the scene.

You might want to read Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death, and his other book, Escape from Evil, he talks about this. Otto Rank (German psychoanalyst) also talked about this, he based his whole theory around will, fear of death, etc. The English translation is a whopper, though -- sentences that are a paragraph long aren't uncommon.

Overall this topic just gets me down.

Sorry about the long post, but the question doesn't have a simple answer.

So where's my copy of CM? I want to think about other things.

[s bakker]

Chess is a war game .......

Wargames are just another way to challenge the mind.

As for people like us being 'interested' in anything related to war, death and war have always entralled mankind .... so why not us?

And why ? 'shrug' People smoke while they know it destroys their health.

A good comparison ? NO. But it shows the human mind works in mysterious ways.

Maybe the fact that war is so terrible is the same reason it enthralls us so.

Who knows ?

Grtz, S Bakker

[PanzerShark]

double post

[This message has been edited by PanzerShark (edited 06-22-2000).]

[PanzerShark]

Wargames especially are great in multiple ways.

Not only is it a challenge and you need to use that grey blobby thing inside yer head but it also "demands" you know some history.

Some people i know actually became history-addicts because they played SP and wanted to know more and more about the weapons used in WW2.

Hey Bakker...still alive?

[Joe Shaw]

War is the greatest game that has ever existed! Now before the sharp knives come out please understand what I'm saying. IF you could remove the death, suffering and tragedy from war (which of course you can't), it would be the grandest and most impressive spectacle and competition ever.

Do you see people who are rabid followers of soccer? Soccer, even at the world wide scale in which it exists, is NOTHING compared to war ... certainly nothing compared to the scope of WW2. Do you think the World Cup is something important for your country to win? Compare that to one country taking over another. We watch the movies and play the games because it's a great competition and, on our computer screens, no one dies, no one suffers and there is no tragedy ... except, of course, that I don't have CM yet.

Finally, there is ... The GLORY of it all. Don't let anyone tell you that war has no glory. The problem is that the death, suffering and tragedy is so far worse than the glory that it might as well not exist. We, we wargamers that is, take the bad parts of war (and in real life it's virtually ALL bad) and abstract them to the point where they don't really matter. Then all that's left is the sight of Napoleon's Red Lancers charging over the hill, The Grand Fleet turning in succession at Jutland with guns blazing ... and the lone Panther fighting to the last against a horde of Shermans admidst a backdrop of a ruined city.

And the honor ... the honor we pay to people like Leonidas of Sparta, Wellington, Lee, Von Richtofen, Daniel Inoye and, well, all of them that fought. BTW, don't hassle me about my spelling, it's early and I'm not where I can look it up

I'm not a war lover, I don't think anyone who spends any time studying war is, we know better. But the subject is fascinating because of the scope and grandeur and because it's true, it happened and we want to get a taste of it.

OK, enough philosophy, where's my game damnit, there are villages to destroy!

Joe

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Perhaps a complex issue, Bighead, but in my opinion, war brings out both the best and the worst in man.

We want to feel the moment of history, to relive it to a point, to "be there."

I was a small boy during WW2, and saw my Dad and uncle go off to war.

I remember being awakened in the night when we were living off base in a small town in Louisiana. The convoys of tanks, trucks and soldiers would roll through the town all night long on the way to the ports of New Orleans.

I would often sit, as a boy of seven and just watch and wonder.

As a young teenager, I remember the headlines in the Journal Constitution when we went to war in Korea. I wondered if the war would last long enough so I could become of age and join the service. It didn't.

During the harsh Vietnam War, I was a tad too old. I watched friends go. Not all of them came back.

War has become a part of our lives. And this means heroes...and evil doers. Again, it appeals to the best and worst in man.

------------------

Wild Bill

Lead Tester/Designer

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[Guest aaronb]

This was first discussed on 1/25/2000. The best (most accurate, concise, and clear) answer to come along was from Bullethead:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Because we are predators. Because we are the top predators EVER to evolve in this eco-system. Sure, our remotest ancestors might have been fruit-eating monkeys, but when they came down from the trees, they developed a taste for meat. So for a LONG time after that, WAY longer than we've had a roof over our heads and had to live together in cities, our ancestors went around killing everything that moved, and each other to thin out the competition.

Why do cats kill mice even when they're not hungry? Because their whole genetic make-up is focused on being the ideal mouse killer. Why to people kill each other? Same thing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gaming is just the civilized way of allowing these urges to express themselves.

[tailz]

I watch and play... and at the heart of it all I wonder... would I have the courage to do it myself? I'm Canadian, my nation burst onto the international stage on the bloody fields of WWI so I wonder... mud, blood and guts... would I be brave or not brave? I like to fancy I would have been some captain's trusty platoon sergeant. (Steady Lads... remember the drill... mark your target... check your range--- and of course making sure my men had dry socks in their packs ) However, for better or for worse I doubt I shall ever have the opportunity to find out... games and movies just fuel the imagination.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I will be playing CM for the "boys own adventure" side of things without any need to kill or be killed. Its the same reason I have been known to backpack for months at a time in the wilds of the Yukon. I carry a gun but have never shot anything. I like the excitement of adventures/war but not the horror that goes with real killing. I read a huge amount of military history and when I do part of the appeal is my admiration for those that took part and "kept the ball in the air".

All the best,

Kip.

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[Woody]

My wife thinks my attachment to CM is unfortunate. I don't really have an answer for it, although there some good ideas here. I've into war games off and on for 30 years and I still don't know why I like it so much.

I got my wife good the other day. We were playing chess, and I suggested there wasn't really any difference between that and war games. She really didn't have a good comeback for that. Chess is a highly symbolized strategy game but it amounts to the same thing. Kill or be killed.

Woody

[Sergei]

Why people play wargames?

-tactical and strategic games cultivate brains and improve logical thinking

-great heroes have always been respected, even in the bible there are legendary war stories, and it's historically been considered the way of manful men to fight for their country

-World War 2 was such a spectacular play, a battle between good and evil, and with endless numbers of battles with endless numbers of stories about them

Now, I'd like to moralize a bit. I think some irrealistic wargames can give a totally wrong picture of what war is all about and thus slightly alter the way people think of war. Especially 3d doom/quake-like shooters can give false, glorified form to war, just as Rambo's and such in the field of movies. Tactical games like CM also have one interesting detail - you are a commander, and so you can order your men to charge into Hell without necessarily thinking that in real life you should be hanged for sacrificing them. Not like I wanted to burst into tears when a 105 mm barrage killed a squad of mine in a computer game, but that's the point. No sane person can be expected to react in the same way to a game and real life, but how do I know if all the Tarantino films etc. I've seen have made me more cynical and less caring, or even worse? Should I be worried about myself? What if I start thinking I'm an SS-Captain?

Sieg heil.

[Steve Clark]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergei:

Why people play wargames?

-tactical and strategic games cultivate brains and improve logical thinking

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's a great answer, at least from my point of view. Even though I am not well versed on WW2, my 20 year study of the Civil War, including its strategies and tactics, leads me to understand how millions of men can be made to do something that is foreign for many of us, esp. those that are not in the military. It is fascinating to analyze how millions of men can be organized (for the most part) to act like units in a game. Wargames just duplicate, to some extent, those strategies and tactics without the horrors. Good question.

[buddy]

I always been a war buff. As a kid I spent hours upon hours making intricate military models only to blow them to hell in my dad's garden! War, I think, is a boy-thing. Guys generally like competition and also like to feel like they are part of a team. Human beings in general are very teritorial and clickish - are you like me or not? (Remember the problems with other game bashing last week?) Personally, war gaming and war itself are two entirely different things...and although there are as many opinions as to why we do it we all still wonder if we would perform under those trying conditions. Men have always wanted to test themselves in this fashion - personally I think counting coup (spelling?) was a cool idea. Anyway, the simple fact is that anyone can be in a war and no one is brave and a good soldier all of the time. Most people do what they have to do in wars - regardless of the reasons they are there to begin with - and just end up trying to survive the damn thing. This is pretty much of a rant - apologies all around....

[von Lucke]

Because it beats being shot at for real.

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"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

--- Sigmund Freud

[Zackary]

I wholeheartedly agree with Joe Shaw. A nod to the quote from Bullethead, as well.