Pillboxes - some CM modelling issues

[OGSF]

I am wondering about the way pillboxes are modelled in CM:BO, in particular relating to their "robustness" and the tactics needed to knock them out.

Whenever I have used them, or attacked them, they seem to succumb very easily to long range direct fire from AFVs'. Tanks seem to have little trouble putting shells through the firing slit, usually in three or less shots.

Perhaps the advantage of using pillboxes lies in defence against infantry and / or artillery. However, this seems moot as tanks invariably are available to take on the pillbox. Which leads me to consider tactics as used in the ETO in 1944/45 vs what works in CM:BO.

According to Doubler in "Closing with the Enemy", when assaulting pillboxes artillery fire and mortars would force the crews of pillboxes to close the embasures. After the barrage moved on, TDs' would put direct fire on pillboxes to prevent the crews from manning their heavy weapons. Specially trained assault infantry would then move in under the covering fire and use bazookas, satchel charges and flame throwers to break in the back door of the pill box. At this point the crew usually surrendered. Doubler says that the average time to reduce a pillbox was 30 minutes, using these tactics. This does not really compare to the one or two minutes pillboxes have survived in my games (whether I attack them or use them).

I have flanked pillboxes in games and had a bazooka team target the rear of the pillbox. All the bazooka team did was expnd their ammunition against the reinforced concrete casing, instead of blasting in the back door.

So my conclusion would be that pillboxes in CM do not extend the life of the gun inside by very much as they are very susceptible to direct fire from armour, but are impervious to infantry assault.

I was wondering what other's experiences are, whether pillboxes in CM need to be "tweaked" in future versions of the game, if the AIs' ability to reduce pillboxes needs to be improved, or if they are just fine the way they are.

My own take is that direct fire from tanks and TDs' ought to suppress the crew inside, but a kill through the firing slit should be quite rare. I also would like to see bazooka and engineer troops have the "AI sense" to blow in the back door of pillboxes, effectively causing the crew to surrender.

OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer

[Chupacabra]

I agree. Although I can back this up with nothing more than my own suppositions (a bad place to start, acknowledged), pillboxes don't feel right, for the reasons your pointed out.

If anyone has more concrete evidence than I about pillbox employment and the techniques used to reduce them, I'd be grateful to read it.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Guest Lord General MB]

Soldiers,

How effective are flame throwers against pill box's?

I never get close enough to find out....

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Salute!

Lord General Mr. Bill

Supreme Commander

1st Army

[Ales Dvorak]

LGMB,

Try Monte Cassino! (2 nd battle, nice warm fire)

[Bobbaro]

I recall reducing one bunker with a flamethrower,and another with a U.S. parachute squad.

[Beckman]

Well I am about to start a 3000 German defend versus a 6000 Allied Assault. I have 2 pillboxes, a Vet 88 and a Reg 75. I will let you know how they fare. Thanks for the heads up that they are not as effective as I may wish. I will report any cool things they do.

[OGSF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bobbaro:

I recall reducing one bunker with a flamethrower,and another with a U.S. parachute squad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you remember what the parachute squad did to kill the pillbox? Was the pillbox cement or "sticks"? What weapon did they use to kill it?

OGSF

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OGSF:

So my conclusion would be that pillboxes in CM do not extend the life of the gun inside by very much as they are very susceptible to direct fire from armour, but are impervious to infantry assault.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I made a senario where there we a bunch of pillboxes, all I had to work with were british para's. They knocked out 7/10 Pillbox MG's with gammon bombs. BUT......as for the other three PB MG's.....they didn't live to fine out

[Pvt. Ryan]

My experience with pillboxes is that mine die easily while my enemy's are more resilient.

In one scenario I was defending against a US assault and I had several pillboxes of various types. In most cases the AI moved engineers or infantry and bazookas behind or next to the pillbox, then pound it with demo charges, grenades, and zook rounds until the crew was killed or the pillbox was destroyed. Sometimes it took one turn, other times it would take 2 or 3 turns.

As far as the MG bunkers, the AI took them out with empty C-ration boxes.

[Tiger]

I am playing a game against the AI right now where I have a concrete pillbox w/75mm at gun atop a fairly tall hill. It's held out for 8 turns so far against a couple of churchhills, shermans. They've been firing at it at long range from turn 1. It's taken 4 hits so far with no effect. Nothing through the slit though. It is at an sharp angle to the tanks so maybe placement has something to do with it. Maybe it should be possible to "button" a pillbox?

-jmtcw

john

[Tris]

I saw this is an issue immediately upon my first play of VoT as the Americans. Second time around it was the same deal, with my Shermans again taking them out with rounds right down the chute. (My heavy artillery did bang on one of the concrete pillboxes until its crew ran for it.) When I played as the Germans the result was similar--tanks took 'em out again from long range. The GI's never got near them, anyway--they were too busy overrunning my poor squads of grunts well in front of my "forts."

[Guest wwb_99]

In one scenario, which features an armored assault on two hills, one with a PB-75 and the other with a PB-88, the PB 88 accounted for some 15 enemy vehicles, incuding 7 tanks. At the same time, it was under direct fire for most of the game (or at least until I wiped out his armor). The PB-75 did not last as long, but got 8 or so by itself. The main reason these pillboxes lasted so long was the engagment range. In most cases it was above 500m, and at times about 7-800m. The 75 got KOed because enemy tanks were able to approach to within 250m.

The point of the confusing passage above is this: keep AT pillboxes at standoff range. They are nearly indestructable when placed on top of a hill near the rear of your deployment area but covering the approaches.

Also, is it just me or does it seem odd that AT pillboxes don't have any small arms. I would think that the germans would put a lmg 42 in with the ATG for close defense, or would have enough sense to pick up their MP-40 and shoot out the hole when enmeny infantry appears.

WWB

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Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus.

[Tiger]

The result of my pillbox w/75mm at gun I mentioned above: it survived all 35 turns atop a bald hill near the rear on my side of the map. It was light fog but had a clear field of fire almost to the far side of the enemey's side of the map.

It came under fire from turn 1 by no less than 2 tanks, at times 4. It took at least 4 "hit no effect" during the battle. It took out 5 vehicles, 3 tanks, 1 halftrack and an armored car. It ran low on ammo around turn 20, it ran out of ammo completely at turn 34.

Also, the pillboxes in the demo and the final game are different IIRC. I think they were made less susectible to arty strikes.

-john

[Maj. Bosco]

I'd just like to ask if anyone else finds it strange that even direct hits with 14" naval guns are unable to kill pillboxes while Stuarts deal with them easily. I tried it out in the editor. I used a bunch of 14" guns to try and get rid of a few cement pillboxes (mg's IIRC). I ended up with a lot of craters, a few PBs inside those craters (really, they read as "located in crater") but no knocked out PBs.

[PeterNZer]

Shockwave would liquify the contents of said pillbox i would have thought..

PeterNZ

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hi guys,

Combat Mission 2 will have greatly improved treatment of fixed fortifications. I can't say for sure what changes will go into them, but Charles and I have been discussing the need for improvement for a while. Unfortunately, to do the kinds of things we are imagining requires some serious coding work. It would be a bad idea to hold up CM2 in order to do this for CM1. However, it is our hope that it will be made backwards compatible with CM1.

As for durability of pillboxes, it really depends on how they are used. If they are used correctly, and have a little bit of luck, they can cause all sorts of Hell on the enemy (as some of you have just testified to). But they do have their inherent weaknesses.

Wooden bunkers are only good against light mortars, near misses from heavier artillery, and infantry small arms. They are dead meat against anything heavier. I think even the US .50 cal can cause them a good deal of grief.

The concrete pillboxes are very good when being hit by artillery. As was shown on D-Day, it was very tough to knock these fortifications out with artillery. Even the big stuff. But a direct fire round into the firing slit (which is quite big for something like the 75 or 88) will most likely knock the pillbox out. All you need is a 37mm gun for that. To defend against lighter rounds and HE, these types of pillboxes had the ability to "button up", which is something we plan on adding for CM2.

The most important thing for a pillbox is where it is placed and how far back from the "front" it is located. The closer to the "front" and the more exposed it is, the greater the chance it will be knocked out. The best thing to do is locate the pillbox in some sort of cover, like just inside some Heavy Woods, or at the very least some Light Woods. This greatly increases the chance that a direct fire weapon will miss the firing slit. If it is just sitting out in a sunny open hill... you are asking for a direct hit

The best pillboxes were placed with rather limited fields of fire. The concept was to cover a smaller area with greater certainty. Putting a pillbox on the top of hill that can see everything on the map is not necessarily a good plan. If the enemy comes at you from multiple, and widely seperated, locations the chances of surviving the encounter are greatly reduced. But if you are positioned to cover a single route of advance, the chances of being knocked out by anything but close in infantry assualt are greatly increased. Distance from the point of likely initial contact is also important. Use other means to defend the other vulnerable areas (either other pillboxes, tanks, etc.).

The Golden Rule to keep in mind is that a fortification can not move when it encounters trouble. So the more opportunities available for the enemy to cause trouble, the less chance the fortification will survive. Unlike a tank, a fortification can not withdraw if things go wrong.

Also, infantry units should be able to whack the rear door of a pillbox. Even grenades from a standard infantry squad should do the trick. However, I think something is not right with Bazookas. I have done a test and was not happy with the results, so I forwarded it off to Charles.

Oh, and Tiger wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, the pillboxes in the demo and the final game are different IIRC. I think they were made less susectible to arty strikes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is very much correct.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

As was shown on D-Day, it was very tough to knock these fortifications out with artillery. Even the big stuff. But a direct fire round into the firing slit (which is quite big for something like the 75 or 88) will most likely knock the pillbox out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I understand it correctly from my readings, concrete pillboxes on D-Day were knocked out by DF either from landed tanks (Commonwealth beaches) or destroyers almost running themselves aground (Omaha, IIRC, b/c the US generals believed in human wave attacks and that they would not need Funnies, yeah right...). They were impervious against heavy bombardment from the air. I do not know whether 14/15" arty was used to engage them at all. This might not have been the case.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

Germans - they come here, they shag our anteaters. (Angus Deaton)

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Von Brizee]

I learned about firing slit penetration the hard way. In my first ever PBEM, I was being defender with infantry against an all-infantry assault.

I spent all my points on as many elite pillboxes and bunkers as I coudl afford, and put them up on hills.

A single 76mm AT gun took out 2 elite pillboxes in the first minute of the game and took out the rest within 2 minutes after.

Drat

[Pvt. Ryan]

I am not very familiar with the historical use of pillboxes, but I would think that the 75mm or 88mm pillboxes would also have had some MGs for close defense against infantry. Perhaps CM2 could incorporate this.

[PeterNZer]

Thanks for the update Steve

Steve, been thinking it's hard to pull back out of foxholes. Would love to see trenches with.. support trench escape route back thingies. So you can move from your trench at the front of woods to the middle of woods safely and quickly, and then from their, wherever.

At them moment, a squad engaging the enemy really has to stay in the trench, there's no chance to pull back without getting a new one ripped. In buildings at least they only have to move 5 or 10m and they are not longer in LOS, so displacing is easier.

Every time I move stuff when on defence I always take a coupl of casualties.. maybe i'm waiting too late.. but support line trenchey things would be nice..

PeterNZ

[Maj. Bosco]

I know that they were resistant to artillery but you should see the kind of punishment that they can take now. I would think that if nothing else the sound would incapacitate anyone inside the pillbox let alone the shockwaves and shrapnel. Just try dropping a barrage of 14" shells on a concrete pillbox and see what you think.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj. Bosco:

I would think that if nothing else the sound would incapacitate anyone inside the pillbox<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never tried that. The only point I can reiterate is:

If a 14" was sure to kill even with a near miss, and given the amazing accuracy that naval gunners could achieve, why is it that they needed DF destroyers and tanks to knock them out on D-Day, and why did 2,000 or so GIs on Omaha who did not have that get killed, when all that was needed was to call in the Warspite? I don't have the answer to that question, but my immediate reaction would be to question the efficacy of indirect fire on concrete emplacements. If someone can shed some light, I would be very interested.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

Germans - they come here, they shag our anteaters. (Angus Deaton)

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Peter, trenches will be included in CM2 for sure. The current plan is to make them sorta like barbed wire. Put them down where you like, rotate them, and there they stay. Foxholes will also not be automatic for the defender as they are now.

MGs were used for defense of the larger pillboxes. However, they were either in foxholes/trenches or contained in their own pillboxes/bunkers. You can do this with CM. The only thing we don't simulate is the assumed ability for a bunker to defend itself by doing something like firing a SMG out the firing slit or tossing a grenade out. Note that this would be largely ineffective in real life, so that is why we didn't include it. However, when we do CM2 we might be able to do this.

The concrete bunkers could take a lot of punishment. A near miss would not do anything, but a direct hit from something like a 14" round would have a good chance of knocking the crew about. However, I don't think they would penetrate. 14" rounds were put in CM only as a rather bad joke (for the Germans ), so it would not surprise me if there are some subtle problems with their use. They were SO very uncommon for a CM style battle that technically they have no place in the game.

Steve

[Pvt. Ryan]

Steve, now that you have addressed my concern, please stop reading and posting to the forum and get working on the patch and CM2.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe... well, someone has to answer you guys

OGSF will be happy to know that he pointed out a nice little bug with bazookas hitting the back doors of bunkers. No idea when this stopped working, but the fix was rather easy. It will be in 1.1.

Also, pillboxes will have a better chance of hitting with less shots. These things were ranged in well ahead of time, so they could more easily rule out the largest variable when firing at an enemy target -> range. I would expect to see pillboxes being a little more deadly with 1.1

Steve