How were the streets in D'Day time ?

[JM Stuff]

Like you @WimO I am a fan of CM Normandy, on this time, and so good as we can, we created the most specific things and aspects, so, I am trying to reworking the 3 streets view in CM, highway, paved 1, paved 2, and I have just a question to you and others member, like our Normandy citizen @PEB14 friend, about the street on this time, in CM we have a lot of styles from differents modders, to represent the highway, paved, and I cannot decide to choose, what do you thing is the best to represent the differents streets on this time?

I was download the mod of @Falaise I think the highway and the paved road 2 is his best choice, but there is no paved 1, in his mod, and also from the others modders to compare it, I am looking also some differents photography of this time, and sometimes, I see something very different from diffents region in Normandy.

Some modders represent the highway like paved road some not, secondary street with two kind of paved and colours...

So my question is simple, how were the principals and secondary roads, on this time, what was the surface of the roads, good, poor quality, the colors sometime a little pink or grey, in macadam, or asphalt, with large cobblestones, with sidewalks or without...?

Thanks in advance to all yours advices.

[WimO]

It is appreciated that you are trying to recreate the Normandy roads JM. I have no answer about the appearance of the surface.  I am bothered more by the inability of CM's editor to recreated the very narrow aspect of many town streets as well as the bocage. I have sometimes attempted to recreate this by placing bocage parallel to each other on adjacent squares leaving no space to place a road graphic tile but still sufficient space for vehicles to pass through.

I suspect that few roads were paved and I reserve these for the highway or primary roads. I never actually use the double-width 'highway' tiles. In town I still frequently use dirt and sometimes cobbled. But I have no justification for doing so.

[JM Stuff]

2 minutes ago, WimO said:

It is appreciated that you are trying to recreate the Normandy roads JM. I have no answer about the appearance of the surface.  I am bothered more by the inability of CM's editor to recreated the very narrow aspect of many town streets as well as the bocage. I have sometimes attempted to recreate this by placing bocage parallel to each other on adjacent squares leaving no space to place a road graphic tile but still sufficient space for vehicles to pass through.

I suspect that few roads were paved and I reserve these for the highway or primary roads. I never actually use the double-width 'highway' tiles. In town I still frequently use dirt and sometimes cobbled. But I have no justification for doing so.

Thanks Wim I am very attentive of all infos, and I just discover now, that some modders are represent some kind of street with a size of 512x512 and some are representing the same road with a 1024x1024 and this is a little strange because I was trying have a mix from one and from another one and I have to resize myself the tiles road, I think I am not finish to discover things... so the game resize automatically the terrains roads...tiles like, the floatings Icons, with differents sizes.

About the road sizes I demonstrated, with a video that 2 vehicles can't cross the same street at the same time, in opposite direction, one of the drivers must give a break to let the other cross in the opposite direction, deduction... there is already "a small error" on the calculations of BFC on the size of the street, but hey !! I can be wrong, this is only a personal thought.

...thanks Wim to yours advices. 

[PEB14]

I'm not a specialist of the road look in Normandy during thr WW2 era, I think that @Falaise probably will be more useful.

Gravel and paved road seem to be a good approximation of the main roads, that were really few at the time: Caen-Bayeux-Cherbourg, Caen-Rouen, maybe Caen-Lisieux. The main road are numbered N-something (N for Nationale). D-roads (Départementale) were secondary, narrower roads.

I completely agree with @WimO that the main failure of the game engine is the impossibility to create very narrow roads from the bocage country. Veterans frequently mention the fact that many roads were cart trails, not even wide enough for a vehicle to pass. For my forthcoming map of the Baupte area I'm also using the "parallel bocage" trick; even today, roads in the area are sometimes very narrow in between bocage hedges (even though they're asphalted).

To sum up, I don't feel necessary to mod the visual aspect of the roads to enhance CMBN's Normandy look; it's really more a matter of making the roads deeper (sunken roads between high bocage hedges), and narrower. And authors should really refrain to use paved roads outside of the bigger cities, and restraion the use of gravel roads to N- and main D-roads

[JM Stuff]

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I'm not a specialist of the road look in Normandy during thr WW2 era, I think that @Falaise probably will be more useful.

Gravel and paved road seem to be a good approximation of the main roads, that were really few at the time: Caen-Bayeux-Cherbourg, Caen-Rouen, maybe Caen-Lisieux. The main road are numbered N-something (N for Nationale). D-roads (Départementale) were secondary, narrower roads.

I completely agree with @WimO that the main failure of the game engine is the impossibility to create very narrow roads from the bocage country. Veterans frequently mention the fact that many roads were cart trails, not even wide enough for a vehicle to pass. For my forthcoming map of the Baupte area I'm also using the "parallel bocage" trick; even today, roads in the area are sometimes very narrow in between bocage hedges (even though they're asphalted).

To sum up, I don't feel necessary to mod the visual aspect of the roads to enhance CMBN's Normandy look; it's really more a matter of making the roads deeper (sunken roads between high bocage hedges), and narrower. And authors should really refrain to use paved roads outside of the bigger cities, and restraion the use of gravel roads to N- and main D-roads

Well, here is already some very interesting informations about the Normandy roads.

That's why I support Stephane @Falaise who already gives us good explanations on his mod, except as mentioned the paved1 roads, I wanted to know the difference in coating between the so-called fast roads, and the secondary roads, and it's ok, I retains N and D to have a difference between the two.

(deepen the roads (hollow paths between high bocage hedges) I don't know how to give a better presentation, but think about.
 
Narrowing the roads is already what I am trying to do, and for me it will be the difference between the highway and paved1 roads, because the width of the road is not the same, and even less the paved2, and I can try to represent.

And authors should really refrain to use paved roads outside of the bigger cities, and restraion the use of gravel roads to N- and main D-roads

This is interresting to know, and give a way, how we have to represent "a dday road", extern a town or village...

All this remains banal, and as explained above, maybe I'm wrong to want to change the aspect..., thank you, for all infos.

[PEB14]

10 hours ago, JM Stuff said:

That's why I support Stephane @Falaise who already gives us good explanations on his mod, except as mentioned the paved1 roads, I wanted to know the difference in coating between the so-called fast roads, and the secondary roads, and it's ok, I retains N and D to have a difference between the two.

To be sure you I was clear enough…

There is no necessarily a difference between N and D roads. This classification allows to know the importance of the road (N = main roads of national importance, D = local important roads). But at the time you may find D roads of the same standards than the N ones. Uncommon but possible.

Once again, let's wait for Stéphane who certainly will have more precise information.

And of course one can rely on photographs when available.

[JM Stuff]

27 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

To be sure you I was clear enough…

There is no necessarily a difference between N and D roads. This classification allows to know the importance of the road (N = main roads of national importance, D = local important roads). But at the time you may find D roads of the same standards than the N ones. Uncommon but possible.

Once again, let's wait for Stéphane who certainly will have more precise information.

And of course one can rely on photographs when available.

Ah ok yes, I was thinking N and D were differents, in sizes, this will be also more understanding but, yes I will wait that Stephane come back probably he will have more details, thanks you very much to take time to give  more explanations.

Edited June 11, 2023 by JM Stuff

[Combatintman]

I appreciate that this is stating the bleeding obvious but if you're looking at a particular area then find period photos or maps.  The maps should tell you what type of surface and width the road had.  If not looking at anywhere in particular and you're in the game of making a generic map then go with percentages of rough vs paved in the general area you're trying to recreate.

[JM Stuff]

2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

I appreciate that this is stating the bleeding obvious but if you're looking at a particular area then find period photos or maps.  The maps should tell you what type of surface and width the road had.  If not looking at anywhere in particular and you're in the game of making a generic map then go with percentages of rough vs paved in the general area you're trying to recreate.

 

Yes indeed, on some photos it is possible to discover if the roads are wide enough for two vehicles, and thus get an idea of the width, the coating and sometimes indications of the roads with post signs, with national or departmental number as explained, above.

This is the first time that I am making myself maps, so now I did already two for belgium 40 and soon trying to created myself scenarios, but I was also interrested for the future to the Normandy and others regions in france, and want only to know more about the trafic on this time.

 

Thank you for your additional infos

 

 

 

[Falaise]

as explained @PEB14the roads according to their importance are not manufactured the same in 1944 !
the Nationnale (n158 for example Caen Falaise) are tarred, certain departementale also according to their importance.
the communal roads (which come under a city or a village) are made of white macadam made of lime.
the site "Remonter le Temps" can be useful, there are dark tarred roads and macadam roads which are white
most of the roads at the time are macadam.(dirt road or ground gavel in my mod)
As for the aspect for me the most realistic to represent the paved road is the stock one the "paved road 1". I looked on sections of abandoned road where you could see in section the different layers of tar accumulated on top of each other  (that's archeology) and the lower layer  reveals a brownish tar with reddish or white gravel in appearance it looks like paved road 1 which lasted until the 70s 80s. I remember that the road in front of my house looked like this when i was a kid.
In the city the majority of the streets were paved and or in white macadam for the penetrating axes
the highway did not exist, in some scenarios the designers however chose to use it, I replaced it with paved road 1 for more realism to remove the cobblestones, in Normandy there was no cobblestoned road, only in the North of France this is why the use of my 22.5 mode does not disturb

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fptprj21yytz78b/AADkFnNTqLmjjaXxgk4WMlUMa?dl=0

I give a dropbox link with the floors I use.
There are also other floor textures, I let you choose. This mod is used with stock floors, so to see what it gives you must delete your other mod on the theme
The cobblestones are those that I have observed in different places, Falaise, Caen, Bayeux.
I will try this winter when I have time to come back to the subject
including on the shape of the roads (hollow path raised path etc...) I was interested in this for the game and I discovered a fascinating subject while little known and yet essential for a society : The roads from prehistory to These days

[JM Stuff]

40 minutes ago, Falaise said:

as explained @PEB14the roads according to their importance are not manufactured the same in 1944 !
the Nationnale (n158 for example Caen Falaise) are tarred, certain departementale also according to their importance.
the communal roads (which come under a city or a village) are made of white macadam made of lime.
the site "Remonter le Temps" can be useful, there are dark tarred roads and macadam roads which are white
most of the roads at the time are macadam.(dirt road or ground gavel in my mod)
As for the aspect for me the most realistic to represent the paved road is the stock one the "paved road 1". I looked on sections of abandoned road where you could see in section the different layers of tar accumulated on top of each other  (that's archeology) and the lower layer  reveals a brownish tar with reddish or white gravel in appearance it looks like paved road 1 which lasted until the 70s 80s. I remember that the road in front of my house looked like this when i was a kid.
In the city the majority of the streets were paved and or in white macadam for the penetrating axes
the highway did not exist, in some scenarios the designers however chose to use it, I replaced it with paved road 1 for more realism to remove the cobblestones, in Normandy there was no cobblestoned road, only in the North of France this is why the use of my 22.5 mode does not disturb

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fptprj21yytz78b/AADkFnNTqLmjjaXxgk4WMlUMa?dl=0

I give a dropbox link with the floors I use.
There are also other floor textures, I let you choose. This mod is used with stock floors, so to see what it gives you must delete your other mod on the theme
The cobblestones are those that I have observed in different places, Falaise, Caen, Bayeux.
I will try this winter when I have time to come back to the subject
including on the shape of the roads (hollow path raised path etc...) I was interested in this for the game and I discovered a fascinating subject while little known and yet essential for a society : The roads from prehistory to These days

Bien voila the additional infos that close the chapter, already open from @PEB14, now jumping to the "time maps", thanks to the link and all explanations from both of you !