PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Hi, (The question below is a real-life TOE one, not a Combat Mission mechanics one.) I'm starting a scenario as the US side. I've got a battalion(-) of rangers under my command. In D Company, there are two Scout Teams attached directly to Co HQ. I'm somewhat puzzled by the composition of these 3-men teams: 2 SMG and 1 sniper! What is the rationale to mix in a Team a long-range sniper and two short-range SMG? And what is the rationale to put a sniper in a Scout unit? To me, it looks as logical as to mix an AT gun and a mortar in an Artillery battery... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) Snipers are first observers. Moving units don't spot camouflaged enemy units. The sniper has to do the spotting as he is stationary. The submachine gunners need to protect the sniper if his position gets attacked. Snipers in CM, I found they miss 99% of the time when you give them direct fire orders. It seems the AI calculate hits and misses by fire superiority. A bolt rifle has a low fire volume. Edited February 17, 2023 by chuckdyke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, chuckdyke said: Snipers are first observers. Moving units don't spot camouflaged enemy units. The sniper has to do the spotting as he is stationary. The submachine gunners need to protect the sniper if his position gets attacked. Snipers in CM, I found they miss 99% of the time when you give them direct fire orders. It seems the AI calculate hits and misses by fire superiority. A bolt rifle has a low fire volume. In real life??? Really??? You mean the sniper was supposed to do observation job in his eyesight under close protection of the SMG boys? Come on! The other way rounds sounds more reasonable: wasn't the sniper supposed to stay undercover at a distance, to cover the scouting SMG guys?... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, PEB14 said: You mean the sniper was supposed to do observation job in his eyesight under close protection of the SMG boys? Come on! When you use optics, you're legally blind, aka tunnel vision. Inside 100 meters everything is just about superior than a sniper's rifle. Any suggestions how to use this unit? Looks like they have sidearms too (9mm) They have a .50 anti materiel rifle, 7.62 sniper rifle and a 5.56 mm assault gun with a 40mm grenade launcher. They have a PDA and Radio, later in the battle UAV longrange spotting Mortar and Artillery support. Their PDA enables the UAV operator to put his drone in just the right location. Popping enemy with their rifles comes second. It is how I played this battle. BTRs and T90 became smoking hulks. Snipers first function as spotters. Snipers in the game miss 99% of the time when you give direct fire orders. Good luck playing I am open how snipers should be used in the game. Edited February 17, 2023 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 19 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: When you use optics, you're legally blind, aka tunnel vision. Inside 100 meters everything is just about superior than a sniper's rifle. That's exactly my point! That's exactly why I don't understand the point to have a sniper in a WW2 Ranger Scout Team (as it is called in the TOE). In your screen capture of the modern game, you show a sniper team. Not a scout team. And you know these units far batter than I do, as you showed already very interesting test results with these units! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, PEB14 said: scout team. I use scouts for pathfinding and snipers for observing or any other unit with binoculars and radio. My boyscout days, we were called pathfinders and the guy with the binoculars was called somebody else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, PEB14 said: sniper in a WW2 Ranger Scout Like in Save Private Ryan they had a marksman in the squad operating behind enemy lines. Having a marksman is not out of order I think, used for the lookout makes sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 minute ago, chuckdyke said: Like in Save Private Ryan they had a marksman in the squad operating behind enemy lines. Having a marksman is not out of order I think, used for the lookout makes sense. Yes. Unfortunately in CM you cannot split the team to keep the sniper behind the SMG scouts for the lookout task... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, PEB14 said: Unfortunately in CM you cannot split the team to keep the sniper behind the SMG scouts for the lookout task. They can't go into the attic knock out some tiles for an OP. I think stuff like this is more important than a Pershing or Comet tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 10 minutes ago, PEB14 said: Yes. Unfortunately in CM you cannot split the team to keep the sniper behind the SMG scouts for the lookout task... That is the issue not enough micromanagement something for Engine 5 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) Ok, actually, that is a very good scouting team. Scouting teams, just like anything else can be assigned different type of Missions Examples. Locate enemy troop locations Forward Observation post to report on enemy unit movement Arty FO post for calling in arty. Killing of High value targets behind enemy lines. Support of friendly lines - normally on an avanue of approach that you are not guarding with main line troops. In general, these type of teams are not to engage in direct combat. but if they do. The sniper would be the unit to use at range where they can kill the enemy, but in all likelyhood not receive any accurate return fire. Example, team is guarding a flank position with wire and mines in open fields, likely approach the enemy is not likely to use. A enemy scouting team is trying to move through this area. A perfect situation where this team could be allowed to fire at say 350 to 400 yards. Possible kill or at least pin the unit in place and suffer no losses. The two smg's are a good asset for the fact that this team is called on missions where they have no support generally. They dont want to get into firefights on most missions. But the fact is, they might run into the enemy or be ambushed by the enemy since they are to be used for scouting purposes. So those two guns give them a fighting chance in such a situation. nothing more. Modern teams still use the same concept. They have some method to reach out and kill if needed. Normally this is calling in heavy support, but are packing firepower for a up close and personal mishaps Edited February 17, 2023 by slysniper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, PEB14 said: In real life??? Really??? You mean the sniper was supposed to do observation job in his eyesight under close protection of the SMG boys? Come on! The other way rounds sounds more reasonable: wasn't the sniper supposed to stay undercover at a distance, to cover the scouting SMG guys?... Yes. To grab the CMFI TO&E, this is the Ranger company in 1943: In this case, these are the sections equipped with BAR. There is an option for them to have the M1919A4, in which case the MG team is split off as a separate element. These sections look more or less like a conventional US rifle squad, albeit with satchel charges, since each squad has two engineers organic to it. The HQ element looks like this: This is a commander and XO, a radio operator and a marksman. The SMGs are there to provide close-in protection, but they aren't the reason this exists - the main point of this formation is that you have one chap with the Springfield, one chap with a radio, and two with binoculars. The main strength of any sniper team is rarely in the rifle, but in their spotting and their radio, they are primarily an ISR asset, and can call in indirect fires they can call in. There's no real reason for the other men in this unit to carry anything other than an SMG or a carbine - the binoculars and the radio are the main assets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 41 minutes ago, domfluff said: Yes. To grab the CMFI TO&E, this is the Ranger company in 1943: Well, in the scenario I'm playing, I've actually got two companies organized along this TOE, plus another one which looks like a heavy company (with 2 HMG teams and 2 smaller (2-teams) assault sections per platoon. And there is this bizarre D Co., with no Weapons (mortar) sections attached to the Co. HQ but two "Scout Sections" of three men (two SMG and one sniper). And also a 3rd Team (2 men) with a BAR gun. And a single Platoon in addition. Maybe this is not a historical TOE... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 CMFI has so many TO&E options that it's hard to pin that one down, and in addition you can have units which start at less than 100% strength, which will complicate things. Still, the point here is that the "SMG" guys are really "binocular" guys (who carry around a light weapon, so that they don't have nothing), and having a chap with binos paired with a sniper has been standard practice forever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 5 hours ago, PEB14 said: Hi, (The question below is a real-life TOE one, not a Combat Mission mechanics one.) I'm starting a scenario as the US side. I've got a battalion(-) of rangers under my command. In D Company, there are two Scout Teams attached directly to Co HQ. I'm somewhat puzzled by the composition of these 3-men teams: 2 SMG and 1 sniper! What is the rationale to mix in a Team a long-range sniper and two short-range SMG? And what is the rationale to put a sniper in a Scout unit? To me, it looks as logical as to mix an AT gun and a mortar in an Artillery battery... It shows they have binos and one of the SMG guys (at least) has them, so I'd say it's a scout/sniper team and the two SMG guys are spotters and protection for the guy with the sniper. Keep in mind that Rangers, besides scaling the cliffs at D-Day, or operating as an elite infantry unit, are also well trained and used for small, covert, behind the lines actions, raids and ambushes. That team could come in very useful for say, eliminating a sentry post, while keeping the main body of Rangers back a bit and less prone to early discovery. Just one real-life example. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ultradave said: It shows they have binos and one of the SMG guys (at least) has them, so I'd say it's a scout/sniper team and the two SMG guys are spotters and protection for the guy with the sniper. Keep in mind that Rangers, besides scaling the cliffs at D-Day, or operating as an elite infantry unit, are also well trained and used for small, covert, behind the lines actions, raids and ambushes. That team could come in very useful for say, eliminating a sentry post, while keeping the main body of Rangers back a bit and less prone to early discovery. Just one real-life example. Dave Agreed. Just it badly translates into the game, as you've got to keep your 3 guys together while in real life they would operate more remotely. Anyway I will use them as standard scout as intended, they will do the job! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 They would work together in real life. When one is observing with bino's, the other two are providing him security. This is practices that have been around from the WWII period and you just have not ever come across any information to let you kwow of such practices. We are trying to give you insight that these are formations that are real and why they have such units attached to them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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