BTS's decision to give AT teams and snipers such low ammo

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe F:

Also im im currently playing a great PBEM scenario - "Move it or Loose IT" Im the germans defending a town, i have 4 snipers but none of them has managed to make a kill yet,

Regards...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know? They might have all gotten kills.

Jeff Heidman

[IPA]

Can anyone out there confirm that the standard ammunition load outs for AT Teams in CM is accurate? I think the standard load of 6 rounds for a AT team sounds about right. The way it stands I treat my AT teams as precious commodities and conserve my ammo wherever possible for high probability kills (which is the way it should be). Increasing the standard load out would allow players to be less picky about their hit probabilities especially in the short time periods that each CM battle represents.

However, my understanding is that for support units such as AT and Mortars, the burden of carrying extra ammunition was distributed amongst the other members of the platoon. If the standard load is historically too low, I like the idea that during the initial setup an AT or mortar team could have a higher load out, but if they move the remaining ammo should then be reduced only to what they could actually carry. I recall somewhere in the manual that this is already simulated if a mortar team suffers casualties and it moves. Alternatively if ammunition runs out for AT teams there could be a very limited "LOW" ammunition feature that simulates them scrounging rounds from the rest of the platoon as with standard unit types. The enforcist is on "very low" and this could be built in as a very low possibility random factor.

For sharpshooters I think the ammunition load is two low. Except for the odd instance, it is a case of one shot one kill. The number of shots per minute could be reduced however. I'd also like to see the standard "low" ammunition feature with sharp shooters rather than "out of ammo".

My 2p

IPA

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IPA:

For sharpshooters I think the ammunition load is two low. Except for the odd instance, it is a case of one shot one kill. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must have really good sharpshooters then. I have not seen that at all in CM. Or are you talking reality? In which case any sources would be appreciated.

As for the suggestion about the 'low' ammo state, that is not really feasible, b/c mortars and LATWs are modelled as guns, so every shot has to be tracked. Whilst small arms are abstracted, not every gun is tracked, they are aggregated at the squad level. So these are two completely different and incompatible models. And I would not really like to see a 'low' state. How would that work out in practice? The teams shooting less?

------------------

Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-03-2000).]

[jshandorf]

Just wanted to add to the pot that I have seen a sharpshooter take out 2 guys with one shot. So the ammo load out and the rate of fire IS abstracted.

The only thing that REALLY bugs me is that a sniper won't shoot at infantry that is under 100 meters from him. THAT has caused some really interesting situations. Such as the sniper sitting in building with infantry that doesn't see it and just sitting there staring at them... Grrr...

Jeff

[This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 11-03-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IPA:

Can anyone out there confirm that the standard ammunition load outs for AT Teams in CM is accurate? I think the standard load of 6 rounds for a AT team sounds about right. The way it stands I treat my AT teams as precious commodities and conserve my ammo wherever possible for high probability kills (which is the way it should be). Increasing the standard load out would allow players to be less picky about their hit probabilities especially in the short time periods that each CM battle represents.

However, my understanding is that for support units such as AT and Mortars, the burden of carrying extra ammunition was distributed amongst the other members of the platoon. If the standard load is historically too low, I like the idea that during the initial setup an AT or mortar team could have a higher load out, but if they move the remaining ammo should then be reduced only to what they could actually carry. I recall somewhere in the manual that this is already simulated if a mortar team suffers casualties and it moves. Alternatively if ammunition runs out for AT teams there could be a very limited "LOW" ammunition feature that simulates them scrounging rounds from the rest of the platoon as with standard unit types. The enforcist is on "very low" and this could be built in as a very low possibility random factor.

For sharpshooters I think the ammunition load is two low. Except for the odd instance, it is a case of one shot one kill. The number of shots per minute could be reduced however. I'd also like to see the standard "low" ammunition feature with sharp shooters rather than "out of ammo".

My 2p

IPA<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except, if the sharpshooter kills 5 guys, he is doing pretty good historically for a 30 minute battle. The point is that the Sharpshooter, with 10 "shots" representing 50-100 rds of ammo did not, except in the rarest of rare situations, kill platoons of enemy. lay waste to squads of attackers, or dominate the countryside. They took out a tank commander or two. Maybe they took out a leader, broke two squads, or messed up a gun crew. If they had 40 shots, then you have universal soldier in a church tower.

Better than making them more powerful, it is better to learn to use them for what they were designed for. Sneaking up and popping high value targets, or lying in ambush along important routes of egress.

[Hamstersss]

Minor inconsistency with the "SS ammo is abstracted so it's ok" argument:

All ammo is abstracted, so why would a sharpshooter go into battle with less ammo than his counterpart in a rifle squad? When I play, I grab my Ami squad and it's got 40 ammo, what do these guys conserve their shots more than sharpshooters? Are sharpshooters smaller guys so they can't carry as much ammo? It's the same gun, in most cases.

------------------

I've got far more annoying things than that up my sleeve.

-Meeks

You must wear awfully loose shirts to fit an oompah band up your sleeve.

-Chrisl

[Lordfluffers]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

How do you know? They might have all gotten kills.

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can tell, Jeff, by highlighting a unit, pressing enter, and clicking on the kills button in the top right corner. Try it! And don't be so clever!!

------------------

What signal? I see no signal!

Horatio Nelson

Battle of Cape St. Vincent (1796)

[TZEENCH]

Why dosent BTS just make a new unit with the same graphics called a SNIPER. twice as accurate but mabe 4 times the cost.

that would solve the myth that snipers are the sharphooters thing.

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

You can tell, Jeff, by highlighting a unit, pressing enter, and clicking on the kills button in the top right corner. Try it! And don't be so clever!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have had units that have gotten kills but it didn't register in the "Kills" log.

A sniper CAN shoot at a distant enemy infantry? unit and not know if it got a kill but you might have.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 11-03-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

Minor inconsistency with the "SS ammo is abstracted so it's ok" argument:

All ammo is abstracted, so why would a sharpshooter go into battle with less ammo than his counterpart in a rifle squad? When I play, I grab my Ami squad and it's got 40 ammo, what do these guys conserve their shots more than sharpshooters? Are sharpshooters smaller guys so they can't carry as much ammo? It's the same gun, in most cases.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because 1/2 the FP of most squads is counted for in automatic weapons that are either crew served, or have distributed ammo supplies, somthing the sjarpshooter does not have.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TZEENCH:

Why dosent BTS just make a new unit with the same graphics called a SNIPER. twice as accurate but mabe 4 times the cost.

that would solve the myth that snipers are the sharphooters thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the Sniper you are thinking about did not become a historical reality until Vietnam. There may have been good shooters in WW2, but no long range kill from a kilometer hide in the bushes types.

[Maj. Bosco]

You also have to keep in mind that SS's are stealth units. They're virtually invisible. I don't know if you've ever heard a platoon of guys marching around with all their ammo and equipment but it's a damn sight louder than would be considered stealthy.

[Hamstersss]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Because 1/2 the FP of most squads is counted for in automatic weapons that are either crew served, or have distributed ammo supplies, somthing the sharpshooter does not have.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a number of rifle-only squads that have each guy with a rifle and have ammo of 40. How could the ammo be better distributed? Did each squad have a dozen "Ammo Porters"? It makes no sense that these guys have more ammo, especially considering that the ammo is abstracted and regular foot soldiers are going to spend it more liberally.

------------------

I've got far more annoying things than that up my sleeve.

-Meeks

You must wear awfully loose shirts to fit an oompah band up your sleeve.

-Chrisl

[IPA]

First question. After all this time I still don't know how to set in quotes for previous messages. Stupid huh? Could someone please enlighten me.

Germanboy,

No I don't mean that my sharpshooters, score every time. Except for the odd instance when "5 guys" get taken out, it seems that when they do hit it's generally one guy at a time.

It just seems they expend their limited ammo way too fast. 3 shots a minute? After four minutes you may as well withdraw standard load sharp shooters off the map. You're right about the low state being not being feasible, as their treatment as guns is in the hard code. Either ammo loads could increased or rate of fire could be reduced if BTS were to consider the change.

Slapdragon,

I agree with the pop up tactics. But from what I've seen, it seems once they start shooting they don't stop until they're out. ie within a minute they use up several shots that are beyond your control. Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

Do either of you have any comments on my AT comments? I've just finished reading Burgett's "The road to Arnhem". Though I can't vouch for whether he's 100% accurate (he telling his story from a paratrooper "grunt" perspective), on page 24 he states:

"Machine Gunners and Mortar men could not possibly carry heavy weapons and all the ammo needed to sustain them through several days and nights of fighting......so each man (in the platoon) carried a couple of cans of MG ammunition, at least two mortar rounds, a couple of bazooka rockets.....smoke grenades".

(OT - Ah the old smoke grenade issue)

Thanks

IPA

[joeski]

I'm with IPA how do you put other people's comments in quote's?

------------------

"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey

[Kingfish]

IPA,

There are 2 ways to add quotes from other posts:

1) above each post there are 4 buttons, one of which is a "Reply with quote".

2) next time you post look to the left of the text window and you'll see a button labeled "UBB code is on". Click on that and it will explain it all to you.

Hope this helps.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

You can tell, Jeff, by highlighting a unit, pressing enter, and clicking on the kills button in the top right corner.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you can't.

The only time you get a "kill" in the unit screen is when you have positively identified the target and you can see the unit count go from x to x-1 in the enemies display.

I would say that less than 40% of actual infantry casualties are ever seen on a unit kill screen.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Try it! And don't be so clever!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, barring some new information, I will continue my unabated spurt of cleverness.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Big Time Software]

As for QUOTEs and stuff, check out:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ubbcode.html

Now, on to the ammo loads...

Sharpshooters - these guys were not supposed to shoot 120 rounds of ammo during a battle. In fact, they should be ultra rare in CM games (even if they aren't in practice) as their use in the frontline was limited. The benefit of a sharpshoot is similar to a boobytrap or badly aimed harrassing artillery fire.

The main purpose of a sharpshooter is to cause a larger impact from a smaller effort. One guy with a rifle, firing at the enemy in an otherwise non-combat area could mess them up. The enemy would pretty much go to ground and waste ammo/energy trying to combat the lone gunman. If the sharpshooter actually hit something, all the better. But a sharpshooter is just a guy with (hopefully) decent aim using a scoped, stock rifle so kills weren't acheived with "one shot" normally.

A Sniper, on the other hand, is a specially trained and equipped soldier that worked as a small killing team with an assistant. This is NOT modled in CM. A Search on the word "sniper" should pull up a LOT of discussion about this.

Bottomline is that the Sharpshooter's ammo is purposefully dumbed down. Why? Because they were supposed to shoot and scoot. Giving them a full ammo load would allow the player to further compound the ahistorical use of this unit, so we decided to limit the ammo count.

As for ammo loads with team serviced AT weapons... they are accurate. Been gone over many, many times in fact and the loadouts have not been found to be incorrect. As for extra ammo being carried by someone other than the team, sure it is possible in real life if they actually had access to extra ammo in the first place (and that is questionable). Just as it was for them to carry extra ammo for a MG or something. But this is impossible for us to simulate so you get only what the team can carry.

Steve

[IPA]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

IPA,

There are 2 ways to add quotes from other posts:

1) above each post there are 4 buttons, one of which is a "Reply with quote".

2) next time you post look to the left of the text window and you'll see a button labeled "UBB code is on". Click on that and it will explain it all to you.

Hope this helps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Kingfish

IPA

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

There are a number of rifle-only squads that have each guy with a rifle and have ammo of 40. How could the ammo be better distributed? Did each squad have a dozen "Ammo Porters"? It makes no sense that these guys have more ammo, especially considering that the ammo is abstracted and regular foot soldiers are going to spend it more liberally.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even a rifle squad distributes spare ammo across the unit when they do not have any automatic weapons. An example is a US rifle squad which each soldier carried 8-10 clips of 30 cal out, then the squad had a 8 more boxes per person in packs, plus medical supplies, explosives, maybe a radio (maybe not) grenades, and all sorts of junk to fight and talk with.

The sharpshooter has his rifle, 10-20 strippers of 5 rounds each, and has probably dropped his own gear with HQ.

It may be the sharpshooters need to be more deadly, or to shoot slower, but I am not worried about 40 vs 10 shots for them. I would instead be thinking on a way that resupply could be simulated in those situations where it would actually happen (urban or long defense.)

[Slapdragon]

Here is another option: give them more ammo, but make each shot way less effective. As it is they are great if used correctly, messing with them to much will leave some of use facing armies of 400 snipers.

[IPA]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

As for QUOTEs and stuff, check out:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ubbcode.html

Now, on to the ammo loads...

As for ammo loads with team serviced AT weapons... they are accurate. Been gone over many, many times in fact and the loadouts have not been found to be incorrect. As for extra ammo being carried by someone other than the team, sure it is possible in real life if they actually had access to extra ammo in the first place (and that is questionable). Just as it was for them to carry extra ammo for a MG or something. But this is impossible for us to simulate so you get only what the team can carry.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess what I was really asking was does the standard load out already include ammo carried by other platoon members. Answer yes. Eg 3" mortar - 3 men, mortar, stand, base plate, personal weapons, 55 HE and 11 smoke rounds. Without assistance, if they move they'd always have to leave some ammo behind (I can see why they can't run now).

"As for extra ammo being carried by someone other than the team, sure it is possible in real life if they actually had access to extra ammo in the first place (and that is questionable)."

I'm wasn't specific enough.

For attacking units (non-motorised) at the "beginning" of operations where they were not expected to be supplied in the field for several days.

IPA

[jshandorf]

Hey, Steve.

Here is something I have been wondering about. Why is it that sharpshooters won't enage targets under 100 meters away? This has caused some interesting situtations which I have mentioned above.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jarmo]

Here is something I have been wondering about. Why is it that sharpshooters won't enage targets under 100 meters away?

[Bobbaro]

The sharpshooter is stupid if he shoots at close ranges, so his reluctance is correct. However, his reluctance becomes overpoweringly stupid, when he can not defend himself from a one or two man unit.

The sharp shooter's penchant for emptying his entireload out on low priority targets is overdone in my opinionl. He should show some of the same reluctance for doing that that he shows for shooting at a several man unit. As I can not intervene, substituting my brain for his lack thereof, I think some limit should be set on his rate of fire.

There is one method that helps, which is to use ambush markers and only take him off the marker when you specify a target for him. But, after that it is Katy bar the door. The Energiser Bunney sharpshooter does not know when to stop or even slow. I think it would be wonderful if the dope would be limited by slowing jos shot rate, EXCEPT when a target is player designated and when an ambush is triped.

Now, if the shot count represents some unit of fire, has anyone seen a kill without the shot count going down? If his shot count drops with his first shot, as subjectively it seems to us whiners, this is a difficulty.

Test time?