BTS's decision to give AT teams and snipers such low ammo

[jackson44dday]

Why do you guys think BTS decided to give the AT teams(Bazookas, Panzerfaust, panzerschreck,) and snipers such low ammo. (or BTS's reason if they get a hold of this thread.)

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He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane

[KiwiJoe]

If snipers are set up right their 10 rounds can play havok with enemy tanks/hq's/mg's etc. Plus they are excellent spotters placed on a hill with good los across the map. If you gave them too much ammo they would be supermen. I think their role is to pick off "important" targets. Limiting them to 10 rounds insures this happends. Give them 25-30 rounds and you'd have them firing at any old squad that walked along.

As for the AT teams... its simply a matter of wieght I'd think. They are only 2 guys... 1 has to carry the launcher.

[jackson44dday]

so it probably would be a good idea to keep 2 or 3 snipers at one place. And have a few AT teams.

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He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane

[Slapdragon]

WW2 snipers do not work like Swat snipers, 1 round 1 kill. If you look at all the other units each round is a minute of slow firing, with several rounds getting consumed in fast and furious shooting. An infantry unit like a US rifleman with 40 shots has around 200 rds per rifle and more for the BAR teams and SMG, so your sniper is carrying ammo for 5-10 minutes of constant shooting @ 5-10 rds per minute, or up to 100 rds of ammo. That is a lot for a sniper to use in a real battle situation.

[jackson44dday]

So that 40 or so, 10 or so shots isnt the acuall rounds. Its just how many times they can burst fire in a game.

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He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane

[jackson44dday]

sorry for the spelling (actual)

[Los]

I suppose this is the point where someone steps in to remind that there are no snipers in CM only sharpshooters. but none of that detracts from the good points made by Kwijoe or slapdragon.

Anyway re: Bazooka teams the 8 or so rounds the two man team carries seems pretty reasonable now. Considering that they are also carrying their personal weapons, web kit and other gear, which even minus rucksack is about 40 pounds or so. Thhen at the bazooka or worse a Panzerschreck plus the rounds, (and panzershreck rounds are quite bulky), well you get the picture.

Los

[Slapdragon]

Well. it is a composite measure. Not eReally burst fire, but close. Think that 40 shots of an infantry unit in the US is 65+ 20rd magazines for a BAR, 18-30 bandoliers of .30 for the M1s, maybe some SMG ammo, some grenades, plus spare ammo. All those weapons expend at a different rate, and some way has to be found to balance it for game purposes.

[Guest Little_Black_Devil]

Snipers are the only ones which leave me at a loss. In today's militaries its not unheard of for a standard Infantryman to carry about 150 Rounds for his service rifle.

Now, considering that in WWII, (by and large) snipers used scoped versions of standard service rifles, its hard to imagine they also got issued a special "Sniper" ammunition pouch to fit a lowly ten rounds. Of course not, they carried the same general issue ammo pouches for their class of weapon (Kar98, Enfield etc.). So, that means that they were capeable of carrying more than a meager ten rounds of ammunition. In the game, I think that Snipers should have considerably more ammo, an amount more on par with their rifle section/squad counterparts. The existing rate of fire offsets any "super sniper" advantages.

As for AT teams, I can fully understand why they carry such small amounts of ammunition. As one who has had the "benefit" of humping around man-packed Anti-Tank weapons, I can tell you from first hand experience that when your carrying your service rifle and a crew served AT weapon (like the 84mm Karl Gustav for instance) and a few rounds for it, you feel like a frigin pack mule. Then theres your number two, who is carrying his service rifle as well as the rest of the rounds for the AT weapon. Two guys simply can't carry 15 or 20 rounds of AT ammo for the AT weapon AND keep up with a Platoon or Company attack/withdrawl. I believe that the ammunition compliment given to crew served AT weapons like the Bazooka or PanzerShrek in CM reflect that. I would also imagine the same train of thought can explain the panzerfaust quantities too. Yes, one individual Panzerfaust might be "light", but try carrying a few.......and much like the good 'ol M-72s, they add up. Try running around with 4 or 5 M-72s on your back....goodbye noise discipline.

One of the other issues that needs to be addressed is that of supply. You won't see every soldier carrying his complete battle load "as per" all of the time because supply might (and usually is) an issue, and therefore you won't see every man, or every other man carrying a Panzerfaust, let alone a Panzerfaust 100 just as you won't see a 6 Pounder with a complete loadout of Tungsten rounds......well unless your using the editor

Anyhow, thats my two bits.

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Hosti Acie Nominati

[Chupacabra]

LBD - the point is, he's not carrying ten rounds, he's carrying ten shots. Which, as others have pointed out, equate to quite a bit more than 10 rounds.

Don't let the animation confuse you, wysinwyg.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Joe F]

so your sniper is carrying ammo for 5-10 minutes of constant shooting @ 5-10 rds per minute, or up to 100 rds of ammo. That is a lot for a sniper to use in a real battle situation. ????????

I was just wondering if they can actually kill more men during a battle then the 15 rounds they carry??

Also im im currently playing a great PBEM scenario - "Move it or Loose IT" Im the germans defending a town, i have 4 snipers but none of them has managed to make a kill yet, and they are all getting low on ammo 2-3 shoot left. (I haven't checked their Quality but think they are regular) - their targets have been around 100 meters - maybe i should use them for Ambushes instead.

Will they also shoot at infantry platoons or only at HQ - MG - AT targets??

Regards...

[Jarmo]

I've seen it mentioned someone's s-shooter killed 2 men with one shot.

But I'm still not quite happy. If one "shot" equals 5-10 actual shots,

then those sharpshooters are really crappy.

For a sharpshooter to spend 2 "shots", equalling 10-20 rounds,

against an MG position 200-300 meters away, without inflicting anything

but pinning them down, seems unrealistic.

If it's actually 5-10 rounds/shot, an elite sniper should be able to

blow away the whole team with 1 or 2 "shots".

Yes, yes. Sharpshooters, not snipers.

But isn't elite supposed to be the "best of the best", not "above average".

[KiwiJoe]

If a vet sharpshooter could kill 2 people with each round thats 20 kills with 10 rounds for the cost of 22 points. I'd buy at least 10 every battle. They are pretty good now... in a nice postion 1 SS can force your enemy to button all his armour or have his TC's heads blown off (ask PeteNZ . If you make them any better you'd have to increase the cost and they would seriously screw with the balance. Perhaps a point could be made to increase the ammo to 12 or 15 tops, but for the low(ish) cost they are a good support unit which is what they should be.

[Oddball_E8]

Well it would be mighty hard for an elite sharpshooter to hit someone that is hiding behind cover... unless BTS has modeled in those JFK magic bullets...

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Wof, wof, wof, wof... Thats my other dog imitation.

[Lordfluffers]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

If snipers are set up right their 10 rounds can play havok with enemy tanks/hq's/mg's etc. Plus they are excellent spotters placed on a hill with good los across the map. If you gave them too much ammo they would be supermen. I think their role is to pick off "important" targets. Limiting them to 10 rounds insures this happends. Give them 25-30 rounds and you'd have them firing at any old squad that walked along.

As for the AT teams... its simply a matter of wieght I'd think. They are only 2 guys... 1 has to carry the launcher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact is, in reality, snipers went into battle with a lot more ammo than a measly ten rounds. CM is an excellent game, as we all know, but also one that attempts to model history realistically. For this reason snipers should have much larger amounts of ammo. Contrary to belief they dont hit their target every time, but also some snipers coul dpick off whole squads in battle. As it is snipers are under armed and thus under appreciated.

As to PZ fausts, Bazookas etc, the ammo for these weapons was bulky and cumbersome. Unless there was a depot or something nearby, these squads went into battle with few of these weapons.

[Joe F]

At what range should the sharpshooter start firing??? the maximum range or ??!?

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in a nice postion 1 SS can force your enemy to button all his armour or have his TC's heads blown off (ask PeteNZ)

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Should he start out hiding (thereby not firing) or is he hard to spot??

Please tell the story/tactic of this successfull sharpshooter -

ps, give him an Iron Cross!!

[von Lucke]

I believe it's been stated by Steve and/or Charles that the 10 rnd limit on Sharpshooters is a playability issue. An SS unit with 40 rnds would be subject the game system to too much abuse.

As far as the man-portable AT weapons, the load-outs in CM (bazooka 8 / PIAT 6 / PS 5) are all historically correct for those particular countries --- that's pretty much how many rounds those 2 man teams where issued and expected to carry into a fire-fight.

[KiwiJoe]

SS are very hard to spot even close up. Their max range is 600m so its best to sneak them up to a hill that has some cover and good LOS across the map. They luv shooting at unbuttoned tanks and reek havok on TC's. When I buy 1 its usually for the express purpose of keeping my enemy's tanks buttoned till their knocked out. Even if they miss they force people to keep tanks buttoned or risk a hit next turn as the little buggers are so hard to spot and take out.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

The fact is, in reality, snipers went into battle with a lot more ammo than a measly ten rounds. CM is an excellent game, as we all know, but also one that attempts to model history realistically. For this reason snipers should have much larger amounts of ammo. Contrary to belief they dont hit their target every time, but also some snipers coul dpick off whole squads in battle. As it is snipers are under armed and thus under appreciated.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to ask, but did you actually read any of the other posts in this thread? I would hope not, because otherwise I would be forced to make some inferences about the content of your cranium since the following has only been mentioned three times in the last 17 posts. But for your benefit, let's make it four:

The ten you see does not mean ten rounds but ten units of ammo which should equate ~100 rounds.

Now was that clear enough? No reason to thank me.

The episode with a sharpshooter hitting two guys with one 'shot' (one unit of ammo expended, one graphical indication that the target was eliminated - FOO team - and one sound indication that a shot was fired) was in one of my games, and the sharpshooter was 'crack'.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-03-2000).]

[tss]

von Lucke wrote:

As far as the man-portable AT weapons, the load-outs in CM (bazooka 8 / PIAT 6 / PS 5) are all historically correct for those particular countries

To add one more data point, Finnish PSK teams had 4 rounds of ammo.

- Tommi

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

von Lucke wrote:

As far as the man-portable AT weapons, the load-outs in CM (bazooka 8 / PIAT 6 / PS 5) are all historically correct for those particular countries

To add one more data point, Finnish PSK teams had 4 rounds of ammo.

- Tommi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In addition to that, Swahili Spearmen carry 10 spears but until a game is designed to include them, its all a bit of a moot point.

Regards

Jim R.

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Steve to Combat Mission community:

"If it's not in Combat Mission it never happened in reality"... nah that's not what I meant

"If it's not in Combat Mission then the chances of it happening were miniscule"... hmmm, not quite

"If it's not in Combat Mission then we didn't have the resources to code it"... rats, we've employed more people now

"If it's not in Combat Mission, STIFF SH*T!"... yeh, that's what I meant to say

[Maj. Bosco]

I don't know what history you've studied if you think that snipers went into battle and picked off squads. U of SPR maybe? At least in the US army I don't think I ever heard of a sharp shooter getting any type of special training. They were good shots so they were given scope fitted .30-06 Springfields like the ones used in WWI. If the average sharpshooter killed that many guys then the army never would have gone semi-auto.

[Roborat]

This has probably been mentioned before, but not on this thread, so I'll point it out. When these AT teams were in a prepared defense position, they would have more ammo than the loadouts for movement. I would venture to suggest that their foxhole or position would have as much ammo as they could stuff into it. Is there any way to model this, perhaps give a double ammo allotment for the defender, but the excess gets left behind if the team moves?

Just my 2 cents canadian (0.5 cents american)worth.

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"With cat-like tread, Upon our prey we steal;

In silence dread, Our cautious way we feel." -G&S

[Maj. Bosco]

How would you model that though? You can't leave ammo on the ground on CM so they can only have on them as much as they can carry. If you double the defenders ammo then how do you prevent those AT teams from taking it with them when they leave the foxhole? Waitaminute... this isn't the thread about defenders getting more ammo... Oh well. Still, it's the same answer anyway.

[Slapdragon]

Lets help a bit.

1 -- Sharpshooters are not Snipers. Just guys with a different tactical purpose than the squads.

2- WW2 snipers do not work like Swat snipers, 1 round 1 kill. If you look at all the other units each round is a minute of slow firing, with several rounds getting consumed in fast and furious shooting. An infantry unit like a US rifleman with 40 shots has around 200 rds per rifle and more for the BAR teams and SMG, so your sniper is carrying ammo for 5-10 minutes of constant shooting @ 5-10 rds per minute, or up to 100 rds of ammo. That is a lot for a sniper to use in a real battle situation.

These explanations just slipped down and did not get read, so I will run them back up.

As for ammo, having ressupply would be interesting but modelling it would be tough. What you are talking about is ressupply from static sources. Perhaps a "supply box" that could be "breached" with a new command, but that sound likes CM2 stuff rather than an easy change to CM1.