On-map mortors

[Guest jaja]

Mortors can really fire in trees? It seems there would be a high probability of the shell hitting a branch right above the mortor.

A more realistic mortor representation would be to let them fire indirectly like spotters can.

Also, I know this has been discussed, but in real life FOs were not used all the time. Mostly company commanders (after being told the situation by a platoon) would call strikes (with platoon adjusting)(this was how it was with mortors too).

[Los]

Jeez what is this once every other month we gotta go through this discussion over and over again?

Jaja do you actually know anything about the mechanics of firing mortars? (Done plenty myself.) The weapons platoon has a mortar section varying between two to three 60mm mortars. The guns and crews are one thing. There's another more critical component of the firing equation and that's the the FDC or fire direction center, normally in those days made up of the section leader and an assistant. It was only late in the war that the mortar maggots started carrying radios and the company net used radios that were ****ty "walkie talkies" with maybe a 500m range on a good day. Most of the time they were using wire which was exponentially more reliable.

So the process is as follows, the tubes set in place, put out aiming stakes while the FDC registers their exact location, busts out a compass, surveying tool and aiming circle and lays in the exact location of the mortars. These guys are all right next to each other. Eventually they are open for business. (I'm skipping the rest of the steps since I've typed this out prolly a half dozen times) All his takes some time, depending upon skill. If your mortar tubes are scattered all over the map they are not going to have the comms or capability to do indirect fire and FDC. The mortar section gets one field phone.

It would be patently unrealistic to allow individual tubes to roam the map and fire indirect fire at will. You are not the only one to have read Compnay commander or a WW2 version of 7-20 or 7-10. You will note that the mortar section is together when they are firing in that role and usually in the defense. The time and effort required to do proper mortar fire is represented by be allowed to IF so long as they have't moved or are within x meters of the HQ doing direct alignment. Until the engine is restructured to pull in the roll of the FDC (which by the way is the critical piece here not the FO) and a more sophisticated communications model, then things are remaining as is. BTW we are looking at this stuff in CM2, that and a million other things

Los

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

Mortors can really fire in trees? It seems there would be a high probability of the shell hitting a branch right above the mortor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mortar rounds typically aren't armed until they've travelled a certain distance (I think it actually has to do with how many times the shell has rotated, but that works out to distance). So there should be no danger of the mortar exploding exploding if it hit a branch or something just after leaving the tube.

Of course if the forest were too dense, like if it were a jungle, low powered mortars might not have enough force to penetrate the matted top of the rain forest...but it still shouldn't explode.

Also, real mortar guys probably tried to find places in the forest to set up that were not horribly obstructed. Like, not behind a big oak tree.

[THumpre]

Jaja,

I even had a 60mm mortar decide on it's own to shell a Stug that had crested a hill and was beating hell out of my inf. three shot and Blammo(yes Blammo, that's the sound 60mm and below make)they nailed the Stug right on the roof. Had to run the film five times just to make sure.

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When one goes tear-assing around, one often ends up with a torn ass.

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

Also, I know this has been discussed, but in real life FOs were not used all the time. Mostly company commanders (after being told the situation by a platoon) would call strikes (with platoon adjusting)(this was how it was with mortors too).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should qualify that by stating that USA forces gave minimal training to there officers allowing them to call in arty in lieu of FO. The Germans and the British for this type of work believed in only having specialist and experienced ‘hands’ on the FO dial, which in most commonwealth countries is still the case. Amazingly this has been discussed before.

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From the jshandorf

"Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?"

Mr T's reply

"Don't touch me FOO!"

<BilgeRat> synopsis= "Im a dickhead"

[Guest jaja]

I almost always keep my mortors close together (sometimes spread out for very specifac direct fire instances).

With mortors I would like to have them just sit in one spot and fire indirectly at attacking enemies or enemy defensive postitions. Perhaps if the mortors are in command and in their original foxhole (or still for a period of time) they can be allowed to fire indirectly.

All I want is to use mortors in a historical way. Is that so wrong?

[Phoenix]

It is wrong. Because you have yet to present a case that this was the common way for "on map" motars to be used.

The fact that you cite one book that made mention of it isn't exactly proof of anything being standard operating procedures.

I'm with everyone else on this until you can provide a convincing arguement that BTS (and others) is wrong. I've yet to see anything from you that does so far. Other than "It says so in this book."

You realize BTS is not going to just bow to your desire just because YOU think it's right don't you?

How about some real evidence to support your case, and not just opinions.

[Radar]

JaJa, try this on your own.. go outside and point to the house four blocks away over your shoulder and picture where the front door would be. Now tell your mortor crew to hit that. What ? Thats about what you are trying to suggest...Ok you want a FM in the trees, say 442m away ... or behind the buildings across town, now let me say that unless you have a 'sight'(distance and direction) on the target (yes, LOS is right, without the FDC all you have is the ability of the crew to direct their own fire.) firing at targets out of view would mostly be a waste of time. I read a book years ago about a mortor crewman fighting in the Pacific for the Marines. It is an excellent book, yet at this moment I can't recall the title(maybe someone can help).

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Run in circles, scream and shout...Brown side in, green side out...

[Olle Petersson]

Somewhat related:

How do they adjust fire for the on map mortars?

I've noticed that when I target an area, the mortar starts blasting away, and the first round hit the target just after the third round is fired. All rounds hit close to the target, without any initial ranging shots.

How can they be that accurate from the first round?

Cheers

Olle

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Radar:

JaJa, try this on your own.. go outside and point to the house four blocks away over your shoulder and picture where the front door would be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Radar (great handle BTW) - I think that reality has only a minor bearing on Jaja's thought processes. He has read a book, you know.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Triumvir]

Cave hominem ab unius libris...

or in non-dog latin,

Beware the man of one book.

[Guest jaja]

To think I could possibly have a polite productive discussion on this board!

I cited Company Commander as an example simply because it is the only one I have. I realize it may be an exception, but I hoped members of this board could point to other real-life examples to confirm or deny it rather then critisizing me for having one source and using it to make a full case. Let's try to turn this into a thread about the application of mortors.

jaja

P.S. Don't capitalize my name!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

To think I could possibly have a polite productive discussion on this board!

I cited Company Commander as an example simply because it is the only one I have. I realize it may be an exception, but I hoped members of this board could point to other real-life examples to confirm or deny it rather then critisizing me for having one source and using it to make a full case. Let's try to turn this into a thread about the application of mortors.

jaja

P.S. Don't capitalize my name! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jaja - that is what we tried, but while you are very good at talking, you are not very good at listening. So, for the last time, try listening to LOS for example, he has done this stuff for a living and actually used mortars in the army. He has also done a lot of research for the game. Most of the other people who tried to get this across to you have probably done a lot more reading than you too, and they collectively say that you have it wrong, and don't take note of the special situation in Company Commander.

You should also do a search, since all this has been discussed a long time ago on the board, and all the info can be found in the old threads.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Phoenix]

jaja, you made this statement -

"A more realistic mortor representation would be to let them fire indirectly like spotters can."

People have been about as polite as can be

about this and explained why this is not realistic, and why it would screw up the game. Yet you seem to not be interested in hearing opposing views and only hearing your own opinion.

People HAVE pointed out real life scenerios. Mortar crews did not run around with radios

taking orders from variuous HQ units around the battle field to fire "over there". I think that's been pretty clear.

"Let's try to turn this into a thread about the application of mortors."

Ok...like what?

I use on board mortars with an HQ unit to spot for them, keeping them hidden. Sometimes I stick 3 of them together for a mini "firebase" and have them fire at the same time. Depends on the situation. Sometimes I use them for direct fire as well.

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

To think I could possibly have a polite productive discussion on this board!

Let's try to turn this into a thread about the application of mortors.

jaja

P.S. Don't capitalize my name! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that you're catching some flak on this topic for several reasons. For one thing, several people have tried discussing mortars with you (Los's post springs to the fore). You've ignored them and continued to say you want things to be done differently, according to a perception of mortar use that isn't particularly accurate. People have also pointed out that there are extremely good reasons why indirect fire will not function well in the game, because of game engine mechanics. Again, you've ignored this point and continued to argue that things should be changed. This also ignores the fact that the game is completed. The change you propose would involve a reworking far beyond patching or tweaking. Finally, this issue has been discussed many, many times before, at great length, and very intelligently. You might wish to read some of those threads, rather than continuing to post that you want things to be changed that are simply not going to be changed. If you have received some brusque responses here, you might consider that your own posts have largely ignored or dismissed the responses made to you, so to some extent you're reaping what you've sown.

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Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties,

Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices!

But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli,

All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother!

We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more,

We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues

[Guest jaja]

As I have made my posts when I came across a good point I have not countered it because I consider it correct!

I always try to search, but I don't know all the details such as AND, OR, etc.

I realize the inaccuracy of indirect unspotted (by a guy in command range) fire, but that doesn't mean it was not practiced. Can anyone point me to a good source for the historical use of mortors? I promise I'll shut up then!

Thanks,

jaja

[Rob Deans]

Does anybody have any first hand knowledge of the way mortars were used at this time? How about DIRECT, second hand info (from those that were there)?

Rob Deans

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

As I have made my posts when I came across a good point I have not countered it because I consider it correct!

jaja<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may believe your right, but apparently the majority on the board and BTS don’t. You base your contention off a single anecdote from a single book/work, which dealt from a USA perspective, that’s a pretty poor basis for attacking the ascendant argument and turning it into a theatre wide SOP, compounded by your limited knowledge of Signals and Artillery/Mortars work of the time. Again you’re the one who has to bring sufficient proof to the table, you’ve not done so, read your detractors more carefully.

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rob Deans:

Does anybody have any first hand knowledge of the way mortars were used at this time? How about DIRECT, second hand info (from those that were there)?

Rob Deans<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you think thus far Los has been talking out of his arse?

[Brer Pinkey]

So how about a new unit for the game? Either a small mortar FO (2" for Brits, 60mm for US, I don't know what for Axis). Or, an FDC unit - i.e. a dedicated 'Mortar Platoon HQ' - that must be A)In C&C of all mortars. And B)Has a 4 to 6 minute "unlimbering time" for pounding in stakes and plotting position. That could create some sound contacts and create counter battery fire barrages.

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"What are we going to do tonight Brain?"

"The same thing we do every night Pinkey... We're going to take over Europe!"

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

As I have made my posts when I came across a good point I have not countered it because I consider it correct!

jaja<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bastables, I think he might be saying that if he encountered another person's response and considered it correct, he didn't argue with it. Although I admit I'm not completely sure. I am sure that English is his second language, unless this is Mensch posting under another name.

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Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties,

Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices!

But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli,

All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother!

We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more,

We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues

[stic.man]

my grandfather was an artillery spotter in korea, he doesnt like to talk about, but my mom tells me that he was the guy that was atop hills and such, that gave the coordinates of targets. i guess thats why he doesnt like to talk about, to be the person that chooses where to let it rain death....

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seanachai:

Bastables, I think he might be saying that if he encountered another person's response and considered it correct, he didn't argue with it. Although I admit I'm not completely sure. I am sure that English is his second language, unless this is Mensch posting under another name.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could be right, I hope so.

[Guest jaja]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seanachai:

Bastables, I think he might be saying that if he encountered another person's response and considered it correct, he didn't argue with it. Although I admit I'm not completely sure. I am sure that English is his second language, unless this is Mensch posting under another name.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. I left out a coma after the word "point". Otherwise it is correct! A couple of years ago in seventh grade, I had these things burned into my head. It was terrible...

As I said before, I pointed out an instance that may be an exception and may not. There's no law that requires me to make a full case.

Also, I made a mistake when I said the mortor section had a radio. The weapons platoon (which normally remained with the mortors) did. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Perhaps mortors can be allowed to fire at places in sight or TRPs and adjust from there.

[Phoenix]

"Perhaps mortors can be allowed to fire at places in sight or TRPs and adjust from there."

On board mortars can already fire at TRP's indirectly. Always have been able to. But they cannot continue to do so IF they move from the initial starting spot.

And of course they can also fire at "places in sight". That's direct fire mode.