On-map mortors

[Guest jaja]

On map mortors can only fire if they can see their target or if they are in command (yelling range?) of a unit that can see the target. In reality even the 60mm mortors communicated with foward commanders to aquire targets.

[Cybeq]

In reality commanders couldn't scroll across the battlefield and see every participant. They couldn't be everywhere at once. They couldn't command their forces one minute at a time and view each minute of action over and over from an endless variety of angles and zoom factors. In reality an M-7 Priest could fire indirect. In reality the men looked a tad bit scruffier and didn't say the same things over and over. In reality commanders couldn't quit, eat dinner, and come back to finish the battle on a full tummy. And in reality video games aren't reality.

[chasd]

what he said

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

On map mortors can only fire if they can see their target or if they are in command (yelling range?) of a unit that can see the target. In reality even the 60mm mortors communicated with foward commanders to aquire targets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do a Search.

[Guest jaja]

Example of reality (based on something I read):

Platoon commander: We've got a machine gun in the woods! Request 60mm mortor strike at (coordinates)!

Company commander: Request granted!

Company commander:Fire three tubes at (coordinates)!

Mortor platoon commander:On the way!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

Example of reality (based on something I read):

Platoon commander: We've got a machine gun in the woods! Request 60mm mortor strike at (coordinates)!

Company commander: Request granted!

Company commander:Fire three tubes at (coordinates)!

Mortor platoon commander:On the way!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I am sure I read something like this too. Yet as Cybq said, in reality the company commander could not go across to the machine gun in the woods, poke around a bit, ask the friendly Germans to indicate which place was closest to them that he could still fire on, and then walk back to arrange the fire. In the game you can. Game - reality. Not the same because of relative spotting. As Bastables said, best to do a search.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Guest jaja]

How can this point even be argueable? If needed I will find several examples of indirect mortor fire in reality. Currently, mortors are useless unless one can find very specifac terrain arrangements.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

How can this point even be argueable? If needed I will find several examples of indirect mortor fire in reality. Currently, mortors are useless unless one can find very specifac terrain arrangements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jaja - because there is a different spotting system in the game then in reality. If mortars were not constrained, they would be too powerful. You can dig out all the examples you like, and it won't change anything, BECAUSE THE GAME (sic!) HAS TO ABSTRACT FROM REALITY IN SOME RESPECTS. Get it?

Ans as Chupacapra says - if you can not use mortars, your tactics are to blame, so your time will be better spend brushing them up instead of whinging.

Have a nice day.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-17-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

No one is arguing that mortars are capable of indirect fire. The argument is that allowing completely indirect fire - ie, not within the command radius of an HQ units - would be unrealistic because an RL commander would not have the same omniscient view of the battlefield as you the player.

And, to be honest, if you believe that mortars are useless, the problem is with your tactics.

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[Los]

Actually let me forward this example of reality:

Platoon commander: We've got a machine gun in the woods! Request 60mm mortar strike at (coordinates)!

Company commander: Request granted! Company commander:Fire three tubes at (coordinates)!

RTO: Umm Sir, the mortar section doesn't carry a radio and since you decided to move them from their mortar position which they carefully set up, laid out aiming stakes, set up their FDC and registered their tubes, they can only fire using direct lay or direct alignment.

Mortar platoon commander: Hey where's my mortar platoon? I only have one or two tubes within three hundred meters of here scattered all to hell due to my idiot commander who's moving them all over the map. Since they are not set up near me how the heck am I supposed to set up an FDC and run wire up to the FO so I can coordinate their fire, this isn't 1999 or 2144!

Moral of the story, if you want to have traditional company-level mortar support like you envision either set up the mortars and leave them in one location, or better yet, don't even purchase on map mortars but purchase on map 60mm mortar FO.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 12-17-2000).]

[Mark IV]

Or this one:

BANGBLAMBOOMBOOM

Platoon commander: We've got a machine gun in the woods! Request 60mm mortar strike at (coordinates)!

BANGBLAMBOOMBOOM

Company commander: WHAT?

BANGBLAMBOOMBOOM

RTO: Umm Sir, the mortar section doesn't carry a radio...

BANGBLAMBOOMBOOM

Mortar platoon commander: WHAT?

[Guest jaja]

Just read Company Commander by Charles B. Macdonald. 60mm mortor platoons do have a radio.

NEVER INSULT MY TACTICS!

There are no 60mm FOs (or 50mm). This means I can make 81mm mortors FO units, but not 50s or 60s.

Currently I see 60mm mortors being used to...

1. Hide behind a hill or house with a platoon HQ on top of the hill or in the house, so he can hide and spot for the mortors.

2. Direct fire from a protective piece of terrain. This can be very annoying to find however. Trees are ruled out since the mortor may kill itself. Clear is ruled (of course) out, and brush doen't provide much cover--just protection from sight. Swamp and building are ruled out for obvious reasons. Rough and foxhole in clear are left, but rough is quite rare, and I don't consider just a foxhole to be adequate protection to acheive my standered 7-1 kill ratio.

I'll post what I think should be done soon...

[This message has been edited by jaja (edited 12-17-2000).]

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja:

2. Direct fire from a protective piece of terrain. This can be very annoying to find however. Trees are ruled out since the mortor may kill itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Small mortars in CM rule. They can indeed be fired safely from woods, and in fact can be fired from unrealistically close behind buildings. I've rarely, if ever, had my direct fire mortar teams get shot at (except by speculative arty), and can almost always find a nice combination of terrain for the HQ/mortars. Sometimes it's better to put them in clear, behind trees, where they're safer from treebursts, and put the HQ at the front edge of the trees.

The really nice thing about on map HQs spotting fro mortars, is that they can remain hidden (unlike dedicated off map FOs).

Try putting the mortar crew back in the depths of some woods, where shots that go long won't reach them, and put a decent leader (preferably with a command bonus, if not also combat bonuses) just at the edge of his range and hide him. You can shell tanks that think they're hidden (because of the scatter in the rounds) and force them to button (if you're lucky you'll hit the tc or driver), or if they're open topped, sometimes land one inside. They're also great for turning charging infantry back if you can predict when the charge is coming.

Now that I've given away the secrets, GB and Cuppajava are going to track me down and kill me.

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Slayer of the Original Cesspool Thread.

[Guest wwb_99]

60mm mortars make it fun to play the Americans in QBs.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[John Kelly]

JaJa: I feel your pain mate. Our comrades are insensitve to your plight. However, I must say, I have experienced a great deal of success with direct fire mortars as of late. I simply attach them to a platoon and establish a concealed position. I am amazed a the line of sight they are able to establish, and they bring deadly fire to bear on the enemy. It works for me! Cheers, John

[Guest wwb_99]

I think on-map mortars are handled quite well in CM, but I would like to see one change. As it stands right now, one can only fire within LOS or the HQ's LOS. But you should be able to hit things slightly outside of LOS.

For example, lets say you have a HQ spotted mortar, and you suspect that enemy infantry is in a field behind a hedgerow. As it now stands you could only target the hedgerow and hope the rounds fell long. But I don't think it would be that hard to land things on the far side of obstacles.

My evidence for this is my youthful misadventures with potato guns, which are primative mortars. I could land potatoes (and other things) a few feet behind any LOS-blocking obstacle with a little practice. This would have been much easier with ranging equipment and a base-plate, two things which all mortars feature.

While this may be impossible to implement, it would be really cool to see in a later make of CM.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

While this may be impossible to implement, it would be really cool to see in a later make of CM.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are still coming up against relative spotting. In Real Life you would only suspect, but in CM, if another unit of yours (e.g. a routed tank crew at the other end of the map) has LOS to the spot you know they are there. So it would give you an unfair advantage to be able to do this and make your mortars a lot more powerful than they actually were.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Guest wwb_99]

But you cannot get around the relative spotting issue given the RealBrain which most CM players posess. Even if the hiding unit was out of your HQs LOS, and hidden when your HQ was selected, your RealBrain could remeber where it was based on the tank crew's spotting ability.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

But you cannot get around the relative spotting issue given the RealBrain which most CM players posess. Even if the hiding unit was out of your HQs LOS, and hidden when your HQ was selected, your RealBrain could remeber where it was based on the tank crew's spotting ability.

WWB

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes? That is exactly why you should not be allowed to fire a mortar onto it.

[Mark IV]

However, there is no reason why a Kartoffelwerfer should NOT be able to target it. Gemuesenwaffen were never subject to LOS restrictions.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

However, there is no reason why a Kartoffelwerfer should NOT be able to target it. Gemuesenwaffen were never subject to LOS restrictions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you know exactly what is going to happen next - you give people a Kartoffelwerfer that can do indirect fire without LOS and out of command range, and next thing you know is they want it for the Kitchensink Sdkfz. 276599 ® Schwer as well. We have seen it happen! Wehret den Anfaengen!

[The_Capt]

I would point out that FO can spec fire w/o a direct LOS to a target (observed by another unit or just gut feel) I agree that the onboard 60mm, 81mm and their British should be able to bring fire down on unobserved targets. I am sure the Pl Comd has a map and can lob rounds (with penalty of course) just about anywhere within range.

To offset the relative spotting question one could classify a "spotted" target as "command spotted" (ie someone with a radio can see it and relay the info) and non-command spotted, where a time delay would be imposed for x amount of time (based on distance and spotting unit) before the coy/Bn commander would become aware of its location. The time delay would simulate runners or flow of info thru units. Color coding targets would probably be the best way to relay the above info without over complicating the process.

If a target is "command spotted" then a mortar under command of another linked command unit should be able to fire onto the target area.

Of course if one used this system, the use of unobserved spec fire would still have to be withheld to ensure a player didn't just "psychically" link his forward element with a rear mortar commander.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

However, there is no reason why a Kartoffelwerfer should NOT be able to target it. Gemuesenwaffen were never subject to LOS restrictions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bah, but you ignore the experience of the 14th Hosenschlange division in Poland, in which Finnish Holztruppen were unable to use their Gemüsenwaffe against attacking Soviet units.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Bah, but you ignore the experience of the 14th Hosenshlange division in Poland, in which Finnish Holztruppen were unable to use their Gemüsenwaffe against attacking Soviet units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and to this day, mothers still say "Finnish your vegetables!"

And now you know... the rest of the story.

If half the simple user interface tweaks already suggested had been adopted, the battle window on my screen would now be less than 1 square inch. But I could make those suckers dance.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

But I could make those suckers dance.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there'd be a dialog box asking you if you really wanted to make those suckers dance.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super