Soviet helicopter units and organization?

[Redwolf]

Anybody got information about the organization of Soviet helicopters? Unit sizes etc? I know they were Air Force, not Army but that's where it ends. My Google-fu did not do it

For Hind units specifically. Maybe some info from Afghanistan? 

[Redwolf]

I found this extensive report on Hind operations and the implications for US forces, but it doesn't do TO&E :mad:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA167200.pdf

[Artkin]

20 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

I found this extensive report on Hind operations and the implications for US forces, but it doesn't do TO&E :mad:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA167200.pdf

Look up FM 100-2-3, and should be Chapter 4 pages 139, 140.

[Haiduk]

2 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Anybody got information about the organization of Soviet helicopters? Unit sizes etc? I know they were Air Force, not Army but that's where it ends. My Google-fu did not do it

For Hind units specifically. Maybe some info from Afghanistan? 

For CMCW timline USSR had four types of helicopter units. Until 1990 "army aviation" belonged to Air Forces and after was transferred to Ground Forces, but in real helicopter units subordinated to HQs of Combined or Tank Arnies.

So, during Cold War Soviet there were next helicopter units:

1. Separate helicopter regiment (rus. OVP): 2 squadrons of Mi-6/Mi-26, 1 squadron of Mi-8, 1 squadron of Mi-24 (this structure appeared in 1982 in Afganistan)

2. Separate transport&combat helicopter regiment (rus. OTBVP): 2 squadrons of Mi-8, 2 squadrons of Mi-6/Mi-26. (this type appeared since 1982, before 1982 this regiment type named OVP)

3. Separate helicopter regiment of combat and control (rus. OVPBU): 2 squadrons of Mi-24 (including Mi-24K for artillery spotting and Mi-24R for recon), 1-2 squadron(s) of Mi-8 (including special communication Mi-8VZPU and flying command post Mi-9) 

4. Separate combat helicopter regiment (rus.OBVP): 2 squadrons of Mi-24, 1 squadron of Mi-8

This is typical composition, but could be variations among units. Each squadron of Mi-24 usually had 20 choppers in 5 flights per 4 helicopters. Mi-8 also had 20 choppers, but some sources say combat helicopter regiments had 8-10 Mi-8 in the squadron. Squadrons of Mi-6/Mi-26 had 10 helicopters.

In Germany Soviet armies had two separate helicopter regiments and one separate helicopter sqaudron. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Haiduk

[BeondTheGrave]

Do you mean Attack Helicopter or Airmobile infantry?

According to FM 100-2-3 the Attack helicopter regiments at Army & Front level consisted of two Hind squadrons @ 20 helos each, plus a third Hip squadron for 60 total attack helos. 

If you mean Airmobile, they were controlled by the AF and were formed from parachute battalions. You can find the full TO&E on page 4-140 (of my edition). A front level airmobile assault brigade had three para battalions, plus supporting arms. Those would include 6 122mm howitzer, 24 120mm mortars, 9 BRDM-2(ATGM), and 4 regular BRDM-2s. If I read this chart correctly, (note, seems that I didnt.) it seems like the transport helo regiment was NOT organic to the brigade but was rather attached to that brigade from the front reserve. Similarly no attack helicopter support is mentioned. To me this means that both transport and fire support would be theoretically determined on a mission by mission basis by the front commander. I would guess that a unit might establish a more permanent relationship with its transport regiment, but the transport plan as well as any fire support provided by front level attack helicopters would likely be developed by the Front level AF staff as per FM 100-2-1, which discusses how the next highest staff often centrally developed fire support and movement plans and then issued them to their direct subordinate units. Centralized control and all. 

At least thats how I read it. 

Quick edit: Divisions also seem to have had their own squadrons, two flights (3) ea. of Hoplites, Hips, and Hinds for 18 total, plus supporting units. A footnote states that some divisions would have extra Hinds as the mission dictated. Im pretty sure though that these helicopters were again attached to the division out of Army reserve, even if that attachment were de facto permanent. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by BeondTheGrave

[Haiduk]

58 minutes ago, BeondTheGrave said:

Divisions also seem to have had their own squadrons

No one OOB of GSFG didn't show helicopter sqaudron in divisions - only in armies.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Haiduk

[BeondTheGrave]

22 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

No one OOB of GSFG didn't show helicopter sqaudron in divisions

See FM 100-2-3, pgs 4-38(MRD) & 4-112(Tank Division). Both have an attached squadron in their OOB. The squadron is defined on 4-100 and has this to say:

Quote

Some MRDs and TDs have an organic helicopter squadron, which is also known as a fire support squadron. The squadron has 18 helicopters which may be armed with various combinations of weapons, including antitank guided missiles and air-to-surface rocket pods. Even in the forward area, not all divisions have a helicopter squadron. Instead, they may have a helicopter detachment that performs mostly administrative/liaison roles. The detachment has 6 HOPLITEs, 2 HIP airborne command post variants, and approximately 100 personnel. The detachment does not have significant fire support or troop carrying capabilities.

Given that this squadron is an amalgamation of assets rather than a pure squadron as is found at the army and front level, this seems to suggest to me that this squadron is designed specifically to fill certain needs of the division commander including light logistics, liaison duties, an airmobile command post, light troop transport, and of course in an attack role. Assets in addition to that, including those required to move substantial forces or supplies, as well as major attack units, are located in the higher echelons. 

I was incorrect in reading the OOB's previously. The broken dashed box likely means that structure is only found in some, not all, units. That is supported by the above text. That suggests that some, but not all, airmobile brigades posses their own transport. I dont see what exceptions if any there are for the airmobile units, though I could be looking in the wrong place. The manual can be hard to use. It does beg an interesting question as to what the manual means by a conditional attachment, if it means some airmobile units have to ask the front AF commander for a ride, as I hypothesized above, or if it intends a unit who is spending a large period of time on foot. 

[Haiduk]

47 minutes ago, BeondTheGrave said:

See FM 100-2-3, pgs 4-38(MRD) & 4-112(Tank Division). Both have an attached squadron in their OOB. The squadron is defined on 4-100 and has this to say:

Yes, I was wrong! Helicopter squadrons were gradually taken out from divisions since the mid of 80th and used for establishing of new helicopter regiments. OOB were for 1990, when these units already were removed from divisions.

Divisions on the territory of USSR had helicopter detachments ("otryad") in 3-4 helicopters, but divisions in Groups of Forces in Europre had helicopter squadrons in 12-14 helos.

Typical separate helicopter squadron of Army level in Germany had 8 Mi-8, 2 Mi-6, 2 Mi-24K, 2 Mi-24R  

[BeondTheGrave]

Interesting that there are no Mi-2s. I would have figured they were good for recon and admin related duties, given their size. 

[Haiduk]

12 hours ago, BeondTheGrave said:

Interesting that there are no Mi-2s. I would have figured they were good for recon and admin related duties, given their size. 

Mi-2 were in division level squadrons or detachments. They used mostly like light aerial transport for small cargo or like "taxi" for top divisional chiefs. For recon missions Mi-24R were used (if they were in squadron) 

[BeondTheGrave]

Oh I misread your post and thought we were still talking about the lower levels. My mistake. That makes more sense now.